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I look for things other than peace outside church. I need intellectual stimulation, sociality, love, etc. I get some of that to various levels in and through the Church, but I seek it primarily elsewhere, including from the writings of other religions.
In the beginning of my FC, I prayed & wanted answers. I would of settled for peace. Peace is good. Instead I got emptiness & darkness. While I was going through this challenge, I would hear people in fast meetings testify about the most insignificant or minor issues &
getting answers. For example, losing their car keys, praying & immediately God reveals where they are. My world would get a little
darker every time. Other words I like are: hope & empathy.
I am beginning to realize that some answers to prayer come other people. Not directly from God.
The most wonderful thing you can say to me is: I think I know what you’re going through & this is what I did to come out of a similar
situation.
There is nothing worse than feeling alone struggling with an issue you have no control over. Or, don’t know how it is going to be resolved.
There is nothing better than to say: you are not alone. What can I do to help your situation?
I could have written that, MM. The times I don’t feel peace, I feel nothing at all and I went a very long time of praying and not feeling anything at all as if the heavens are closed. The peace is actually a relatively recent faith transition thing. This thread makes me think of one of my favorite Hymns (Where Can I Turn for Peace?) Quote:
1. Where can I turn for peace?Where is my solace
When other sources cease to make me whole?
When with a wounded heart, anger, or malice,
I draw myself apart,
Searching my soul?
2. Where, when my aching grows,
Where, when I languish,
Where, in my need to know, where can I run?
Where is the quiet hand to calm my anguish?
Who, who can understand?
He, only One.
3. He answers privately,
Reaches my reaching
In my Gethsemane, Savior and Friend.
Gentle the peace he finds for my beseeching.
Constant he is and kind,
Love without end.
I do like that hymn, FS. It was, in fact, one of the few I ever thought about in my time away from the church. I like the words and I like the tune. I do take some solace and hope that Christ does understand, and have only recently come to an understanding of the atonement in that sense. It gives me hope in mercy and grace – at some future time. Yet, it’s not what I need now. Was it an answer or was it my own thoughts? Would this have happened even if I didn’t pray? I used to ask myself question like these, and I never could reach a satisfactory answer for any of them. And then I came to the conclusion that, for me at least, it didn’t really make any difference which it was. The result of the prayer (or not praying) turned out the way it did, and most of the time there was no real way for me to figure out if it would have gone differently if I didn’t (or did) pray. I no longer see the difference between coincidences and divine intervention. I no longer worry about through what methods answers come (or not come), they were often inconsistent anyways. When I pray I hope it gets answered, but I leave that to God and trust that he will provide when necessary. Yes there have been times where I’ve felt completely abandoned, yet somehow I’ve gotten through them and grown from them. Did God abandon me? Or did he know that I would make it? I’m not able to definitively answer that question, so I choose to believe. I realize that such a choice isn’t something that everyone can just go and make. We all have to find our own paths.
ydeve wrote:Was it an answer or was it my own thoughts? Would this have happened even if I didn’t pray? I used to ask myself question like these, and I never could reach a satisfactory answer for any of them. And then I came to the conclusion that, for me at least, it didn’t really make any difference which it was. The result of the prayer (or not praying) turned out the way it did, and most of the time there was no real way for me to figure out if it would have gone differently if I didn’t (or did) pray. I no longer see the difference between coincidences and divine intervention. I no longer worry about through what methods answers come (or not come), they were often inconsistent anyways. When I pray I hope it gets answered, but I leave that to God and trust that he will provide when necessary. Yes there have been times where I’ve felt completely abandoned, yet somehow I’ve gotten through them and grown from them. Did God abandon me? Or did he know that I would make it? I’m not able to definitively answer that question, so I choose to believe.
I realize that such a choice isn’t something that everyone can just go and make. We all have to find our own paths.
The original question is sort of rhetorical, although there have been some insightful comments. Since my view of God is mostly deist I don’t really believe prayers are answered anyway and mostly see prayer as a form of worship. The peace I sometimes feel is likely self generated, like the peace I find at other times and in other settings. The actual thing that I believe I need more than peace as an answer to has been going on for well over a decade, and while I do tend to cling to hope when all else fails I am now letting go of even hope (hence the post).
DarkJedi wrote:The actual thing that I believe I need more than peace as an answer to has been going on for well over a decade, and while I do tend to cling to hope when all else fails
I am now letting go of even hope(hence the post). Buckle up, it’s a bumpy ride.
If you don’t mind me stirring the pot a little…
DarkJedi wrote:Since my view of God is mostly deist I don’t really believe prayers are answered anyway and mostly see prayer as a form of worship.
I’m going to break out a few of the five Ws. Worshiping what? Worshiping why?
nibbler wrote:DarkJedi wrote:The actual thing that I believe I need more than peace as an answer to has been going on for well over a decade, and while I do tend to cling to hope when all else fails
I am now letting go of even hope(hence the post). Buckle up, it’s a bumpy ride.
If you don’t mind me stirring the pot a little…
DarkJedi wrote:Since my view of God is mostly deist I don’t really believe prayers are answered anyway and mostly see prayer as a form of worship.
I’m going to break out a few of the five Ws. Worshiping what? Worshiping why?
Those are actually good questions. It wouldn’t seem as though a deist God would care about worship, and that’s what I believe. Prayer, therefore, is more about us than it is about God. It’s partly why I don’t really believe in prayer. Even Bruce R. admitted nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to pray (see the Bible Dictionary), although there are examples of prayer in the Bible. The Lord’s Prayer itself is quite vague and general.
So, worshiping a being that doesn’t particularly seem to care about being worshiped (or maybe He does and I just don’t understand it) does beg the question of why. I have yearned for the God of of Fast and Testimony Meeting far too long now – like many other things, it’s time for me to give that up and move on – and in doing so I hope to find peace.
I am no expert in Buddhism, but I believe the Buddhist would say that hope is not a good thing. Because it only leads to disappointment after the hopeful thing never materializes. Even if its not a Buddhist claim, I think I believe in it now. I have had hopes for decades that I have given up upon. Instead, focused on being productive and happy in spite of lack of hope in those things.
The other thing that encourages me not to hope (while NOT DESPAIRING EITHER) is the example of the holocaust. God knew that millions of people would die awful deaths during that dark period in our history. How many of them held out with hope and faith that the war would end, that they would be spared, etcetera, and lost? How am I any better than those people in the eyes of God to receive blessings based on hope?
I really believe that living in the moment, and enjoying what is in front of you now is the key to happiness. Stopping your “wanter” — that engine that wants things from others, from the world, from the church, from your family members, from your job — stop that wanter from dictating your happiness. Sure, seek out better situations, but don’t let their lack of realization influence your unhappiness.
I suppose I have grown very tired of being unhappy when I didn’t have things I wanted. Stopping the desire for things to the extent you are unhappy when they don’t materialize is an important part of having peace. And I think peace is highest thing we can want, even above knowledge. In fact, I think peace based on truth is best. Even when you can’t know the truth. That’s the truth — the truth is that when you can’t know the truth, the truth of your situation is that there is no truth you can know. Accept THAT truth, and be at peace.
There is peace in agnosticism after you expect that certain truth will never be known to you. And that’s the truth
:think: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think: :think: 😆 😆 😆 SilentDawning wrote:The other thing that encourages me not to hope (while NOT DESPAIRING EITHER) is the example of the holocaust. God knew that millions of people would die awful deaths during that dark period in our history. How many of them held out with hope and faith that the war would end, that they would be spared, etcetera, and lost?
I see it a little differently. Perhaps it was hope that helped them cope with their situation, a dream that gave people the ability to face another day of existence and to briefly escape their reality. At the individual level
millionslost, it was a true tragedy. At a more global level people rose up and eventually put an end to the holocaust. The people that died in the camps didn’t see the fruits of their desires but it was the collective hope of humanity that closed the camps. I hate to even imagine but I’m sure many people in those camps lost all hope.
SilentDawning wrote:How am I any better than those people in the eyes of God to receive blessings based on hope?
As I alluded to before, sometimes we aren’t the recipients of the blessings we hope for. Immigrants come to mind. Many sacrifice everything and end up having horrible lives just to give their children an opportunity. Maybe they’ve shifted their hopes to their children but sometimes it can take generations.
It might help to get a definition of hope. A force that motivates one to action to achieve a desired result, a desire for chaos to swing in your favor, etc.
SilentDawning wrote:I really believe that living in the moment, and enjoying what is in front of you now is the key to happiness. Stopping your “wanter” — that engine that wants things from others, from the world, from the church, from your family members, from your job — stop that wanter from dictating your happiness. Sure, seek out better situations, but don’t let their lack of realization influence your unhappiness.
That’s probably where I struggle the most. Going back to the people killed in the holocaust. How do you find happiness when you are in a terrible situation over which you have absolutely no control? I think it’s easier to stop a wanter when the want is a Bugatti Royale. It may be a little harder to stop the wanter when all you want is to stop being tortured. It seems like in those situations the only thing we can do is take the bullet and hope that others won’t have to.
One of my favorite movies is: The Shawshank Redemption. This is one of my favorite quotes. Andy Dufresne: Remember Red, hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things, and no good thing ever dies.
For anyone facing an addiction & recovery, sobriety can be a very scary experience.
Hope can be the only thing they can hold onto. If you hold on long enough, it soon becomes the best of things.
Stephen King is the author of this story. He is also an alcoholic who found help for his addictions in the late 80’s.
It is interesting to me how people can go through recovery, get well & do their best work afterwards.
This is one example.
[End of commercial message.]
Yeah, there are probably different kinds of hope – one of those things where another language probably has more than one word for it. I see hoping for something material in this world as very different than hoping to be forgiven in eternity. I am certainly not giving up all hope, but I am giving up the hope that God is same God each of us will undoubtedly hear about this Sunday in F&TM.
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