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My missionary son asked me this question in his weekly email. It’s a great question and I thought I’d like some input as I answer him. In context, we have been having a conversation lately about mission rules, commandments, and the Holy Ghost. He understands and agrees that mission rules aren’t commandments, but are there to keep order and provide safety (except some of the arbitrary extra rules added by his MP). My own definition of a commandment is both broad and narrow. Broad in the sense of the Two Great Commandments and narrow in the sense that I don’t believe it’s a commandment that we serve missions (yes, i know people who believe it is). Also, there are of course obsolete commandments such as the Law of Moses.
So, your thoughts. What constitutes a commandment?
DarkJedi wrote:My missionary son asked mt this question in his weekly email. It’s a great question and I thought I’d like some input as I answer him.
In context, we have been having a conversation lately about mission rules, commandments, and the Holy Ghost. He understands and agrees that mission rules aren’t commandments, but are there to keep order and provide safety (except some of the arbitrary extra rules added by his MP)…My own definition of a commandment is both broad and narrow. Broad in the sense of the Two Great Commandments and narrow in the sense that I don’t believe it’s a commandment that we serve missions (yes, i know people who believe it is). Also, there are of course obsolete commandments such as the Law of Moses…So, your thoughts. What constitutes a commandment?It seems like the term “commandment” is generally understood in the Church to mean what exactly we should or should not do because God supposedly said so. So I wouldn’t call mission rules commandments because they are especially strict and it looks like they are often added simply because some missionaries got into some trouble one way or another so then we end up with a long list of rules such as that missionaries should not operate chainsaws or that kind of thing. Of course the Bible talks about “commandments of men” in an almost derogatory way showing that it’s not unheard of for people to act like things that look more like simple man-made customs or traditions are vitally important, what God supposedly wants, etc. (Matthew 15:7-14, Colossians 2:20-22).
I can see why the 10 commandments would have withstood the test of time so much better than other “commandments” that have been largely abandoned by now such as not eating pork or shellfish and killing rebellious children because they just sound more plausible as something that could theoretically come from a wise and benevolent God rather than being overly harsh, arbitrary, etc. to the point that it doesn’t make sense why God would ever expect and demand something like that. Personally I see some of the current LDS commandments such as tithing and the WoW as being similar to the largely obsolete commandments against eating pork and shellfish (overly strict and arbitrary) and I doubt the claimed connection to God especially given the well-documented history of how these traditions developed over time.
In general, I take the definition the church puts in the missionary lesson book, Preach My Gospel: Quote:Heavenly Father gives us commandments so that we will know what to do and what to avoid in order to receive the blessings He wants to give us (joy, peace of conscience, lasting happiness).
I think all the teachings go from general true concepts filtered down to specific applications and details. The Lord commands us to do things that bring blessings (broad truth = love others). Leaders provide interpretations (on specific applications in life = do home/visiting teaching). The church tries to keep interpretations consistent to help members, and lines of authority establish an order that members can agree to sustain, and these change over time.The church leaders put forth things that fall into categories:
– Opinions
– Suggestions
– Teachings
– Guidelines
– Exhortations
– Commandments
– Requirements
Perhaps there are some overlap on some of these, but for the most part, I think there is a progression of emphasis on things we hear at church.
The commandments are the few things that they draw the line on saying that they need obedience to it in order to be in good standings with the church. Even still, they realize not all will be perfectly obedient. But those are the standards for faithful practice of the religion. (There are also different levels of emphasis on difference commandments…for example…Thou Shall Not Kill and Thou shall not covet…both are commandments…not both are equal in emphasis or punishment). Not all commandments are equal.
I added one last layer of requirements…because I think there is a level of no tolerance for some things, whereas commandments are the standard, but leaders know members will fall short and will continue to ask for obedience. Whereas requirements may disqualify a person from membership or privilege in the church, or for a missionary, disqualify them and they get sent home.
For a missionary, the mission rules (even arbitrary ones from the MP) are the commandments to that missionary, and presented that way. They are not the commandments for all people for all eternity.
I think some things that are strong teachings or exhortations…like being healthy in the word of wisdom…are not elevated to be commandments required for baptism or temple recommends, as other things such as coffee, tea, alcohol, tobacco and drugs. While the Word of Wisdom includes many teachings, guidelines, and exhortations, there is a specific line drawn on to faithfully live the Word of Wisdom commandment.
Because people in the church want more and more specificity on what is ok and what is not, the church creates handbooks and training materials to help leaders balance the truth and the spirit of the gospel with the applications of it in being obedient to the mystical ideas behind the commandments.
In general, I believe commandments are given so we can strive to live the gospel and get closer to God.
One last thought…that could be a whole other discussion…is there are commandments to the church and commandments to God or the universe. They are not necessarily the same things.
A religion, a job, the military, life itself, whatever – Commands are orders that must be followed. In that sense, there are few commandments associated with membership in the LDS Church – and nearly all of them are focused on what NOT to do. In fact, once someone is a member, I am having a hard time thinking of anything they must do to retain that membership, as opposed to things they cannot do and retain their membership.
The core issue is what each person believes God has commanded – and what they view as the consequences for not following those commandments.
Old Timer wrote:The core issue is what each person believes God has commanded – and what they view as the consequences for not following those commandments.
I think that’s the crux of the conversation I’m having with my son. We covered long ago that we should keep commandments because we love God and not because we should expect some reward (at least earthly reward) for doing so. He gets that and agrees. He also sees the need for mission rules (and school, work, etc. rules) and that they can’t just be ignored, although some can be broken with no consequence whatsoever. (The last part he’s just beginning to understand. An example is “live emailing” while that is against mission rules.) He believes breaking commandments might have a consequence, though, and is trying to distinguish what are commandments, what are rules, and what are just opinions (McConkie type things).
So I think that’s really what he’s asking Ray et al. How does he know what’s a commandment and what’s a rule? As I said earlier, I think it’s a really good question and I want to give him a good answer that is more than my tainted unorthodox point of view but which is also not a fully orthodox point of view. An example might be the WoW. I don’t consider the WoW to be a commandment, partly because it says it isn’t. Nevertheless I do live the WoW mostly because I think it’s good advice. I also don’t murder, but I do consider it and the other 9 commandments.
Just a side note about the WoW. My son’s mission is equatorial – very hot all year long. It’s one of the no suit missions (which he was really excited about). Because it’s so hot, people there don’t drink hot drinks. However, the WoW pamphlet they hand out there specifies that black tea – what we might call ice tea – is against the WoW. Other teas, including green teas, are all OK even though green tea and black tea are really the same plant. He says it is very specific about black tea. It does mention coffee, but he says no one there drinks coffee or hot tea.
DarkJedi wrote:I think that’s the crux of the conversation I’m having with my son. We covered long ago that we should keep commandments because we love God and not because we should expect some reward (at least earthly reward) for doing so. He gets that and agrees. He also sees the need for mission rules (and school, work, etc. rules) and that they can’t just be ignored, although some can be broken with no consequence whatsoever. (The last part he’s just beginning to understand. An example is “live emailing” while that is against mission rules.) He believes breaking commandments might have a consequence, though, and is trying to distinguish what are commandments, what are rules, and what are just opinions (McConkie type things).
That’s really up to the individual and it would seem that commandments are going to be a little different for everyone.
I got to thinking about nazirites. They abstain from wine, cutting their hair, and they avoid contact with corpses (hey, I’ve got two out of three! I’ll leave which ones up to your imagination
:think: ). I don’t believe all Israelites were under the same obligation. That sounds similar to the dynamic between our civilian members and our missionary members. Nazirites and missionaries knew about the extra rules before signing up, both voluntarily subjected themselves to the additional rules for a season. Does that then elevate the rules to be commandments while serving? Are commandments rules that have been agreed to?Of course there’s probably a base behavior that people would like everyone to adhere to, regardless of an implicit agreement to do so. You could frame commandments as societal rules, if you want to be a part of a society you have to follow their rules.
Take the rule of no swimming. That’s not something we ask of all members, it’s a mission rule. It’s a rule that can be broken with no consequences… for the vast majority of the time. I think some mission rules are meant to eliminate all risk. No one wants their child to drown on their mission. No one gets near water, the chances of drowning go way down.
I’m not sure what the no live e-mailing rule is about. Preventing people from becoming homesick or less focused on the work? I’d love to see the rules meant to keep missionaries in a state of laser-like focus relaxed a bit. I think missions would be a little more successful on all fronts, happier, and less stressed out if many of the rules were relaxed. At the same time if I were responsible for 80,000 corybantic (turns out there’s a thesaurus on the internet
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I’ll give my doofy answer and say that commandments are god’s rules that will make us happy if we follow them, whether we know they are good for us (make us happy) or not.
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Side note to your side note: I served in a “no, that just means black tea” mission. It’s a cultural thing. Hardly anyone drank what we call tea, what they called tea was mostly made up of flowers or fruit peels and was for the purpose of curing some sort of indigestion or irritable bowels that weren’t afraid to make it known to the sufferer. So you say “no tea” and people look at you like you said “no imodium AD/pepto.” When we taught WoW 100% of the time we had to clarify the “black tea” thing.
Interesting perspective, Nibbler. I can certainly see how a commandment or set of commandments might belong to one group and not another, and there are several obvious examples of that – observant/orthodox Jews follow the kosher dietary laws while most of the rest of the world does not (although halal is very similar) and Mormons follow the WoW while most of the rest of the world does not. But are you implying there can be commandments to individuals that are not commandments to other individuals? I agree it is at least somewhat up to each individual to figure out what he or she is meant to do (and not do, commandments do tend to be negative), just like it’s up to individuals to find their path in other aspects of the gospel. I think that’s part of the issue my son is dealing with too – some of his companions and housemates might believe differently about commandments than he does. An example he gives is the Sabbath. He is determined to stay fit on his mission and devised an exercise program he could do daily without having to have his companion have to do anything special (like go to a park and watch him run), although his comp could also participate if he chooses (there have been varying levels of participation). He does not exercise on Sunday, but he does what he describes as a stretch routine, which is also part of his daily exercise. Some of his companions/housemates have criticized him for not keeping the Sabbath and then make the link that his lack of success as a missionary is because he’s not keeping the commandment. He believes the Sabbath is a commandment, and he believes he is keeping the Sabbath (I actually told him no missionaries really keep the Sabbath, and I think that’s true). In the past some of his more dogmatic strict obedience associates have similarly tried to link other things to lack of success or lack of influence of the Holy Ghost (not being out the door at the set time, for example). I think what he’s really trying to figure out what influences success/HG/etc., and what doesn’t. We have had the strict obedience isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be talk, and I do think he suffers from some cognitive dissonance related to is tendency toward OCD behavior (which he also works at controlling). He could very easily be one of the most dogmatic strict obedience guys but he also sees it doesn’t really work.
The truth is he is successful, they have a teaching pool and they are progressing and he has done baptisms/confirmations. Any lack of success (and there have been times) is probably much more related to the two of his four companions who wouldn’t work (literally) and went home early and his poor excuse for a trainer. His current companion (his favorite and most hard working by far) is at the end of his mission and goes home next week. Given the track record, I worry about what he’s going to get from the box of chocolates.
Oh, and he thinks the one email per person (including family) rule is because there seems to be a problem in his mission with excessive girlfriend contact. On the other hand, it’s also a rule in the mission where I live and I don’t perceive it as a problem here. They have other weird mission specific rules, they’re not allowed to go to museums, for example. I can’t figure that one out, especially since the handbook actually encourages the opposite and my other son’s MP moved p-day to Wednesday so they could go to museums and such which were normally closed on Monday.
DarkJedi wrote:But are you implying there can be commandments to individuals that are not commandments to other individuals?
Maybe. If my community was isolated to Eureka, Canada we might eventually come up with a commandment to not go outside without a coat. If my community was isolated to Death Valley, USA and we crossed paths with the Eurekans I imagine there would be a whole other set of commandments and that they may clash on a few particulars. Where do commandments ultimately come from, directly from deity or from a human’s interpretation of what they believe to be the desires of a deity? Would the ancient Israelites have the no shellfish commandment if they had epi pens handy? Ok, that’s presentism, oversimplification, revisionist, grossly inaccurate, etc. but I was just trying to make a point.
Beliefs could be a product of our environment, and on some level what we feel are god’s commandments is a matter of belief. With that in mind I suspect there are many similarities and common commandments that most people recognize, the Light of Christ in Mormonese, but I’d also expect that there will be differences in commandments from one group to another. But perhaps the question is what does god consider a commandment, not what do us humans consider to be a commandment.
DarkJedi wrote:They have other weird mission specific rules, they’re not allowed to go to museums, for example. I can’t figure that one out, especially since the handbook actually encourages the opposite and my other son’s MP moved p-day to Wednesday so they could go to museums and such which were normally closed on Monday.
I might have possible answers to that one. Some missionaries might serve in areas that are inconvenient to the museum. That might set up a scenario where some missionaries get to go to the museum where others do not, somebody complained, and now no one gets to go! The travel time to and from the museum coupled with the time it takes to tour the museum didn’t allow missionaries enough time to do other p-day activities and get back to work in time. Maybe a missionary knocked over a priceless vase a few years back.
🙂 The vase scenario actually is a good possibility. Some missionaries posed improperly with a statue of Buddha at a temple in an East Asian mission once, and it spread across the country and even got international attention. For a while, no missionaries throughout the area were allowed to visit Buddhist temples, mostly so the outrage could settle. I am not a fan of universal rules being applied to individual screw-ups, but I understand it. I know the unwritten rules about male and female church leaders traveling together were the result of a few situations that turned sexual and led to excommunications. I believe in teaching correct principles and people governing themselves, but I also understand the desire to stop some thigns from happening that can cause major issues within a congregation, a city, a country, or the entire church.
The issue, as discussed in this thread, is that rules (even unwritten ones), tend to take on the aura of commandments – which then builds even more hedges about the law. The intent nearly always is good, from caring hearts, but the outcome is more restrictions and less individual accountability.
It may also be good advice to your son to have him know how to take the temperature of the climate he is in, and consider that as a social member of the group/tribe, when considering what commandments mean. One mission president or one bishop may be very focused on particular things and look for obedience to what they are calling commandments. Just because I can easily dismiss some mission rules as not important in the big scheme of things, doesn’t mean my son’s mission president will see it that way…and while on his mission…he’ll feel the difference between my view and the mission rules and how people are talking and reacting to it. Same goes for a ward.
When that mission president leaves, or the bishop gets released…it changes. Not the overall concepts of what they were trying to teach, but how they did it or what they emphasized.
Sometimes as a missionary, I simply obeyed to sustain my leader…because…I didn’t care about it. And if I don’t care about it…might as well obey it and not ruffle feathers. Nothing wrong with that. It doesn’t change my mind on what a commandment is or not, it is just navigating through the climate.
What clothes to wear on a p-day is not the hill to die on, in my opinion.
Call all the rules commandments, just prioritize them.
DarkJedi wrote:Some of his companions/housemates have criticized him for not keeping the Sabbath and then make the link that his lack of success as a missionary is because he’s not keeping the commandment.
I remember in the schedule in the MTC. I was tired all the time. I did not take showers most mornings for the extra 10-15 min of sleep. I also would trade in my P.E. time for a nap. I remember that one elder in particular felt that I was being disobedient. He felt that if the schedule said to wake up at a certain time or to be playing basketball in the gym at a certain time that it was a missionary rule.
As my mission progressed I found that most missionaries have 2 or three favorite mission rules. I would modify my behavior based upon what was most important to my companion. This is similar to what Heber recommended. This works as long as you do not run across the very rare companion that feels that ALL of the rules must be followed, ALL the time.
I also categorically reject any thought that God blesses more obedient missionaries with more success.
DarkJedi wrote:They have other weird mission specific rules, they’re not allowed to go to museums, for example.
I know that many mission prohibit/discourage missionaries from going to touristy areas. Las Vegas missionaries are not allowed on the strip. San Franciscan missionaries are not allowed on fisherman’s wharf. I know in my mission (Chile) we were told to not carry cameras because the image of white people taking pictures made us look too much like tourists.
I hope this thought actually does fit in here. I was reading about the prohibition, maybe some of them would call it a command, against women reading Torah, and one glass-half-full person wrote that we can then assume that some women werereading. So she saw the command against it as an interesting and hopeful sign. The other thing that came to my mind is Christ asking what was
needful. Heber13 wrote:Call all the rules commandments, just prioritize them.
I see what you’re saying here, but in one way this is exactly what I’m trying to avoid with him. The problem is that he can be very black and white, so if he’s in a tough area or is not being as successful as he thinks he ought to be or as successful he thinks other missionaries are or if he’s just overly stressed by mission life and is not “feeling the Spirit” as he thinks he should, it’s so easily attributed to sleeping a half hour late or getting in 15 minutes late or playing basketball on p-day with another companionship (another weird mission specific rule). I know success and the Spirit has nothing to do with any of those things as does his RM brother. Likewise, doing his stretches on Sunday don’t affect him in that way (no offense intended to those believe otherwise, I just don’t happen to believe God “punishes” us in this life).
As I’ve thought about this these past few days, I’ve come to a partial understanding that commandments are probably only those things which if violated constitute a sin. Looking at a list of the 613 OT commandments, most of them are redundant and relate to the big 10 and there are others that don’t pertain to Christianity. So is it really just love God and love your neighbor? The ten are then just further explanation of that and the 613 further detail on those? What about more modern stuff? Is “be ye therefore perfect” a commandment? What about the beatitudes? I think this is what my son is trying to understand – what might get you in trouble with your MP vs. what might get you into trouble with God so that you need to repent?
My understanding of commandments is: things or rules that God has told me to obey.
DarkJedi wrote:But are you implying there can be commandments to individuals that are not commandments to other individuals?
And my answer to this is most definitely, yes. There have been times where I’ve felt distinct promptings to do something, and ignoring the prompting would be deliberately putting distance between me and God, one of the definitions of a sin. Back when the WoW was first given (setting aside the commandment/counsel question), if a member felt strongly that God wanted him/her to keep the WoW, even though it wasn’t given as a commandment to the Church as a whole, would “breaking” the WoW not be a sin for that one person? He/she would be going against what they believed the will of God is with reference to themself.Another example is I’m not convinced that homosexual behavior is
necessarilywrong or a sin. But I’ve had promptings that God wants me personally to keep the law of chastity as taught by the church (I’m bisexual). So even though I wouldn’t say that not being in homosexual relationships is a universal commandment, it’s certainly a commandment with regards to myself. The LDS Church actually teaches that there are individual commandments that aren’t universal commandments and that God might tell someone to do something He won’t tell someone else to do. I’m not saying that distinction is automatically relevant for missionaries in “major” ways, but I did some things on my mission that technically were against a rule specifically because I thought I was being directed to do so.
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