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I haven’t posted for a while. Sometimes it’s better to not push the process. A comment on this board by Hawkgirl was really useful to me. She basically said that you can control your actions but not necessarily your beliefs. (not the exact wording) I haven’t been to church for a while now and I must say a big part of my feels returning won’t help me. However, I am surrounded by the culture and believes with my ties to my family and neighbors. I don’t have issues with someone attending the church either, and feel in many cases it’s a good thing. One of my big issues is doctrine. I keep hearing and reading people say that just because an apostle or prophet said something doesn’t mean it’s doctrine. That only official statements of doctrine are true. To me this is an easy out for the leaders to be able to avoid accountability for their comments. What I mean is well after it worked it’s doctrine but if it doesn’t it was just something someone said. Another concern is that people believe a prophet can’t lead them astray. But I believe it’s happened many times in our history. There is an danger in allowing the top of an organization to be the only true voice. I remember taking a political science class where we were asked to do a public vote on a subject. Everyone raised their hands and we took the vote. Then we did a private ballot vote and the count was off completely. The point is when people are in a group making decisions under pressures of those over them in authority they may not share their true feelings. The church has a poor history of not being open and willing to discuss problems. Criticism is looked at as an anti action. I believe there is a reason Christ healed the blind to see. Our church may have great tools to communicate with Christ but we are held to unrealistic and unhealthy standards such as: Only approved hymns in sacrament, controlling what is appropriate to say in a testimony meeting, and multiple rules that frankly don’t uplift the spirit.
I started to ask myself if I would like the current leaders of the church to run our government, as the kingdom of God, with all their rules. The answer scared me, “no.” I like a world with culture and diversity. I like to disagree and be disagreed with by people from different belief systems so that I can learn from them. The mission of the church is to 1) Perfect the Saints, 2) Proclaim the Gospel, and 3) Redeem the Dead. I guess that I am not too excited about perfecting or being perfected the way the majority of the church does. What Gospel do I proclaim? I don’t proclaim the prop 8 gospel. I don’t proclaim the right wing majority. Am I proclaiming JS gospel, BY gospel, or todays gospel. Since the gospel is fluid what do I proclaim and why does it matter? How is a ordinance in a building going to help my dead best friend. I would rather shut down temples and give that money to starving kids in Africa. That way I could possibly redeem a child from dying. I was told by someone that if I didn’t obey the gospel then I might not go to the highest kingdom. If the highest kingdom is anything like the list of rules the leaders impose from SLC I think I would rather go to a lower kingdom where tolerance and human flaw is looked at as a gift one can learn from.
If I sound angry you would be mistaken. I love my family and am a product of the church and my choices within it. So what does everyone think? What is the mission and doctrine of the church? Is it fluid? If so how is it any better then the local Catholic church down the street?
I have all the same questions so I won’t give definitive answers. You’re not alone in your thinking. I just posted in another thread about a conversation with my mom that echoes your questions to a great extent. For me, the only possibility is the ability to fraternize with good people while participating from an honest place by transforming the base doctrinal concepts to something more transcendental and charitable. I see that there may be possibilities in the LDS theology wherein the transcendent and charitable are extended beyond that of other theologies. If that matters, is a whole other question. Just wanted to add that I don’t have the slightest idea about what “doctrine”, let alone “Gospel” means to The Church.Well maybe I do BUT I’m pretty sure I don’t agree with the way they “Use” it, if that makes sense. Gospel and Doctrine are just two oversimplified words. I’m begining to think that Doctrine/Gospel needs to be or will end up being whatever you personally believe it to be. It is what is important to you, what makes sense, and what feels right. Honestly, since you yourself have most likely “moved past” the “Church/Leaders/Members” know and have all the answers, phase of living .. you know with your new knowledge and sense of out looking in .. that things are not always what they seem..and you can’t take anything for granted. – stole that quote from the Labyrinth I don’t think you sound angry. It’s only better than the Catholic church down the street if you think it is.
I have learned through the totality of my experiences in all aspects of my life that rules, commandments, laws, doctrine, etc. are absoltuley necessary for group survival – but also that they only can be general guidelines that apply to the majority of the people in the group. Often, they apply to the VAST majority – even 99+% in some cases, but, still, they are generalities – not absolutes. The danger in this recognition is that it is easy after that realization to start rationalizing one’s superiority to the rules, commandments, laws and doctrine. There is a fundamental place in ANY organization / group for sacrifice of self-determined individual idealism for the practical good of the collective whole. Many rules, commandments, laws and doctrines are true, good and right for the community without having to be so for every individual if s/he were isolated from that community. It is a truism in the legal world that nobody can set themselves above the law – but it also says in Romans 2:14 that those who don’t know the law but live the spirit of it anyway become a “law unto themselves”. Even without “doctrine”, those who live righteously can become “doctrine unto themselves”. Again, however, the danger is that this recognition can lead people someone to cut themselves off and/or set themselves apart from the community that in all other ways can provide tremendous blessings.
Therefore, to me, “doctrine” is whatever the prevailing wisdom outlines as the best collective vision for the group at the time. I simply don’t equate “doctrine” with “truth” – and that makes all the difference to me. In the end, I’m willing to accept a lot of “group doctrine” that doesn’t match my own “individual understanding” – for two reasons:
1) My own understanding might be wrong, so I like to keep an open-mind;
2) I don’t live alone. What works for the group (my tribe, if you will) is very important – and I have a social and familial responsibility to support and care for and protect my tribe. I won’t do so in ways that I feel are destructive (careful choice of words) to others outside my tribe, but I will do so in ways that others might not understand easily. (For example, I won’t fight civil unions or other civil rights for homosexuals, even as I also won’t support including homosexual relationships as “marriage”.)
Much of life is a balancing act of competing demands – a practical application of the idea that there MUST be opposition in ALL things. I think that applies to “doctrine” as well – and that only can be if doctrine does not equal Truth. I’m totally fine with that.
What is Doctrine? I have come to see different types of doctrine in the church: 1.
Accepted, or “officially” recognized doctrine: This is what the church handbooks and lesson manuals will contain. 2.
Cultural, Traditional, or “historical” ideas: Some things many members may believe or view as official or true doctrine, may have been taught as “doctrine” in the past, but technically at the present time are not contained in group 1. 3.
“True” doctrine, or in other words the TRUTH. This is what I’m most concerned with lately. These items may or may not be present in groups 1 and 2, and largely (in spiritual matters at least) may be unverifiable to man; but I treasure this category, and seek to increase my understanding of it. Following are statements that support the idea that
True Mormon Doctrine = Truth(I am strangely comforted by the idea that if the culture of Mormonism is teaching something that is not factual – then it is teaching “false doctrine” by Mormonism standards — and according to the principle of continuing revelation [some things are revealed spiritually, some things scientifically] we can look forward to a correction in the future.): ”Mormonism is truth; and every man who embraces it feels himself at liberty to embrace every truth: consequently the shackles of superstition, bigotry, ignorance, and priestcraft fall at once from his neck; and his eyes are opened to see the truth, and truth greatly prevails…” also “Mormonism is truth, in other words the doctrine of the Latter-day Saints, is truth. . . . The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men…” Joseph Smith RS/P manual p.264
…but the righteous fear them not (words of truth), for they love the truth and are not shaken. (2 Nephi 9:40)
Mormonism embraces all truth that is revealed and that is unrevealed, whether religious, political, scientific, or philosophical. JoD 9:14
“Mormonism . . .embraces all truth in heaven and on earth, in the earth, under the earth, and in hell, if there be any truth there. There is not truth outside of it; there is no virtue outside of it; there is nothing holy and honorable outside of it; for, wherever these principles are found among all the creations of God, the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his order of Priesthood embrace them.” (American Moses p.405 note 9)
@Ray and Orson- Your posts in this thread are both absolutely brilliant. I’m not trying to kiss your butts, and I think someone mentioned it long ago, but if you both could expand on your posts and put it in a book it should be chapt. 1 and 2. I see these perspectives as the most difficult but most necessary in one’s journey “staying LDS” upon transcending stage 3. fwiw
^ I’m in Orson’s Mormon Church. Great quotes. That is the founder (Joseph) of my religion that I love so much! FWIW, I think most of the lack of diversity and ideas comes from the local level upward, not from the top leadership down. I know our Church is very hierarchical, but I honestly see a lot of great things being lost on their way down the chain. I am personally aware of people who have had private conversations with Apostles where those men expressed great concern about getting the message out about wanting to “widen the tent” and be as inclusive as possible.
What is doctrine? (back to the original point of the post)
Seek and assimilate truth that leads to personal divinity. That IMO is the essence of official Mormon Doctrine. All truth can be circumscribed into one great whole. It can’t be described except symbolically. Anything more or less than this is false doctrine. And I throw anything and everything on the alter of sacrifice to be burned as an offering — all hopes, all assumptions, and all expectations.
If someone wants more detail than that, I would say the official doctrine is: Have faith, repent, be baptized and receive (experience) the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
Most of the junk past this is cultural practice and the opinions of leaders taken as “doctrine” by others until they are ready to go straight to the source.
Do most Mormons really believe and practice this? Ok, probably not. That doesn’t stop me though. I am free and have agency. I also *feel* strongly a need to be a part of helping humanity along the path.
Quote:I started to ask myself if I would like the current leaders of the church to run our government, as the kingdom of God, with all their rules. The answer scared me, “no.” I like a world with culture and diversity. I like to disagree and be disagreed with by people from different belief systems so that I can learn from them.
I totally agree that to me diversity of thought is far more valuable than people all thinking and doing the same thing. A few thoughts:
– I’m not sure the Q15 want to discourage diversity, but there are plenty of mid- and low-level church leaders who don’t know how to deal with it and who want to simplify their lives. Anything that creates drama creates more work for them, and they are unpaid volunteers with full time jobs in the real world.
– It’s hard to see the bottom of a swimming pool because there’s so much water in between, and the water distorts our view. I think that’s how it is to look at the top church leaders from where we are, only in some cases, the pool is also dirty or the sky is cloudy, making the water even darker. I’ve heard it said that much of the same discussion WE like to have is what the Q15 are having. They just can’t dish up the confusion and discussion for all of us to see and hear. That’s not being a leader. A leader (to paraphrase Napoleon) defines reality and gives hope.
– Government is full of rules that someone thought were a good idea but that are in a way somewhat arbitrary or just there to give people a sense of control. For example, research shows that there is no incremental benefit to from a car seat vs. a seat belt in avoiding injuries for anyone over the age of 2, but the law states that you have to have a car seat up to age 8 or 70 pounds. Why? Because capitalism (car seat manufacturers) met ideology (the idea of protecting the lives of innocent kids) which then met self-serving interests (because politicians look good by supporting car seats, and parents assuage their guilt for all the other ways they are screwing up their kids’ lives). Other “laws” that are not related to universal truths: speed limits, smoking laws, drinking age, fireworks restrictions, business licensing laws, etc. There’s a lot of “law” out there already that’s just like the rules you fear church leaders would impose. The ones I find most irritating (that I would anticipate church leaders would enact if given free rein) are socially conservative laws (so-called “bedroom legislation”) that I don’t feel belongs in government (yet sometimes creeps in), but that’s just MY preference. If you want arbitrary and irritating laws, go to countries where the government is even more efficient at enacting its ideas. IIRC, it was against the law to chew gum in Singapore, under penalty of caning.
Anyway, just a few tidbits to consider.
I guess my problem is that if the church were to run the government we would have less freedom then we do now. We have rules in the church like “not wearing multiple earings?” That is just plain silly. I have a family member who is so extreme in his desire to follow our church’s “rules/commandments” that he leaves little room for forgiveness. This has literally lead him to having mental problems. For him religion needs to go until he can approach it rationally, IMHO. On my mission I was called up by the mission office asking me pack my bags because they received a spiritual conformation that I was sinning. When I asked them what the sin was they didn’t know. I didn’t either. So I packed my bags and went to the mission home. A day later they sent me back with no explanation other then I wasn’t conservative enough in my focus. I hadn’t broke a single rule. I was discouraged but still did my best. But the mission president and his office felt I was evil? Now that was abuse I”ll tell you. What about sending a missionary home for having sex, excommunicating them, and being cut off culturally etc. from the family and ward? I know someone on my mission that screwed up. Well the mission president felt it was necessary to call a mission meeting with all missionaries and tell them that this missionary had done this. His reasoning was to stop rumors from flying. This made me soooo MAD. This poor missionary is returning home and now the entire mission knows why. Again abuse. I could go on and on about this. See if we would change the rules to “compassion and grace” instead of this kind of crap maybe we would truly become the church a that Christ intended. So are we the church of Christ that has been led astray? When will we confront the truth? godlives – the MP situation you describe does sound ill-advised. No question. Quote:This has literally lead him to having mental problems.
I have to call this a chicken & egg question. Church (or other) rules don’t cause mental illness, but those with mental illness can take them to extremes, further exacerbating their mental illness in a downward spiral.
godlives, fwiw, I think that, just like everyone to some degree, your personal experiences color your overall perspective. NOTHING you described is the norm in the Church – or on missions. In fact, both instances you mention explicitly are against the rules for missions. You had a MP who wasn’t following the rules – plain and simple. That happens too much, but it really isn’t the norm – and it absolutely isn’t the rule. Now,
I’m not trying to dismiss those experiences– but it’s important to put them in their proper context. Generally, a bell curve really does exist in most situations and organizations – but, unfortunately, it’s SO much easier to see and emphasize the deviations outside the norm. Your MP was a deviation, not the norm. You said in a previous thread:
Quote:The key is to remember that your relationship is with God and not the members of the church.
I think that’s great advice, so I only will repeat it back to you now.
Finally, I also am glad the Church doesn’t run the government – but it’s not supposed to do so according to our scriptures both modern and ancient. I can’t hold it to a standard its own canon states should not be.
Thank you for the comment. I agree with that comment but I have always said that I reserve the right to change my mind. I guess unlike some of you I don’t see the LDS members as my tribe. I see them as my upbringing. I see my tribe as a collection of ideas that I gained from my own life, and the majority of my close friends are not LDS. I really have found the LDS people as a whole to be much less tolerant and much more judgmental. And yes I have had a lot of very bad experiences with members and a few church leaders. But I never left the church because of this. In fact I put my trust in God. But when I learned more history, looked at my experiences, and listened to my heart, I prayed to God if I should stop attending. I felt a very powerful warmth and peace in my heart, the heaviness started to drop off my shoulders, and tears streamed as I realized the Grace of God. I knew that God loved me and felt leaving for the time being was right for me. However I struggle with other religions doctrines as well. I don’t care for the idea of the trinity for instance. I love the idea of the priesthood. Don’t care much for the temple ordinances but love the Celestial room. I have a mix of things I like and don’t. Unfortunately the negatives have reached to a level much more so then the positives. Once this happened and I had this experience I had only one option, inactivity.
Unfortunately without reviling more about myself there are a few stories that business owners of LDS corporations have done that are so opposite from the gospel teachings, and on a normal basis, that it has hurt my families finances and life. Yet it also forced me to ask the church for help, creating a codependent relationship of love and abuse that I must now face and overcome. I decided to take a step back and give myself time away from the church so that I could breathe; giving me a chance to find out what truth means to me. Unfortunately I don’t want nor need the pressures from my family judging me if they knew where I am at, as they think I’m a regular attender of the church. Plus I still feel uncomfortable changing too much from the belief system I have. I guess I still have a long ways to go. Change like this for me is very difficult and all I can do is follow my inner conscience. So I walk a road much less traveled… a road I’ve never traveled, and it feels a little scary.
“My conviction led me to adhere to the sufficiency of the light within us, resting on truth for authority, not on authority for truth. “ quote by Lucretia Mott
I place obedience to the Holy Ghost above all else in life. I do not, for a moment, believe that our eternal creator expected us to place our faith in men (or women) above that gift of the spirit given to each of us.
Quote:So I walk a road much less traveled… a road I’ve never traveled, and it feels a little scary.
I hope you realize that every one of us understands that feeling. I’ve been walking my own road for a LONG time, especially since my individual road is neither that of the standard conservative or liberal groups in the Church. It’s my own road, and it just happens to be one without walls or guardrails and one that straddles many intersecting roads – which means it’s easier for me to fall, but it’s also easier for me to communicate with those on other roads. That’s a choice I made long ago, and I wouldn’t change it for anything.
My only caution in my own comments to you is to try to avoid thinking “the Church” is unique in its faults. I wish with all my heart it was the Zion of which we dream, but it’s not – and it simply can’t be unless all the membership intermingles with those who are different and learns to accept all. It simply can’t be when those who see things differently than the majority leave. Zion isn’t where all agree with each other on everything naturally. That, essentially, is Lucifer’s plan – and it absolutely isn’t what “the Church” teaches. Zion is unity forged despite differences.
There are FAR more members who don’t walk in lock step with some perceived norm than most people realize – and the best wards, imo, are those where differences are obvious and accepted. All of us like to think we are unique, but few of us really are. A big part of our vision here is to try to help those who might feel isolated and alone realize that there are plenty of others who feel that way – and I’m willing to bet my life’s savings (granted, almost nothing) that most people who leave because “nobody agrees with or understands me” would be SHOCKED to their core if they knew how many people in their own wards actually do agree with and understand them. Of course, that’s not true of all congregations, but it’s true of EVERY ward in which I’ve lived in my entire life – including more than one in Utah Valley.
Again, I’m not saying you need to stay actively involved in the LDS Church. That’s up to you – plain and simple. All I’m saying is that I believe strongly that there is a place in the Church for people like you – IF you want to engage on your own terms that are respectful and loving. (Elder Wirthlin is a wonderful example of that, if you need a role model.) Those who make that decision can be a vibrant part of their communities, but I’m not sure if you are ready for or want that. That’s your call.
I really feel for you in your struggle Godlives. I know how hard it is. Keep pushing forward no matter how high that hill looks ahead of you. You will make the right decisions, right for you, and you will see looking back how strong this experience has made you. godlives wrote:But when I learned more history, looked at my experiences, and listened to my heart, I prayed to God if I should stop attending. I felt a very powerful warmth and peace in my heart, the heaviness started to drop off my shoulders, and tears streamed as I realized the Grace of God. I knew that God loved me and felt leaving for the time being was right for me.
That was a very profound description of the kind of experiences we have. I’ve had those kind of spiritual witnesses too. In fact, I feel like I never really understood the atonement and the love of God until I really let go of all I was hanging onto, finally just letting myself drop … and found that I landed in the arms of a dear friend (God). I felt so much joy letting go of the heavy baggage I had been carrying, that weight of expectation floating away into nothingness, that was pure peace and reconciliation.
Follow peace and happiness wherever it takes you. What could be better proof and testimony than your direct experience? Along with placing expectations and assumptions on the altar of sacrifice, don’t forget pride. Perhaps God will also ask you to stay connected and involved in the Church, even with you new and changed vision.
You are completely in charge now. You will find your destination. I know it!
godlives wrote:I guess I still have a long ways to go. Change like this for me is very difficult and all I can do is follow my inner conscience. So I walk a road much less traveled… a road I’ve never traveled, and it feels a little scary.
We all have a long way to go. I’m glad you are here sharing part of the journey with us. It makes the road a little less lonely.
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