What is excommunication, really?

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the extra info Rob4Hope.

Rob4Hope wrote:

MOST who are exed do not come back…ever.

There is an old article from Deseret News that claims a stat of 97% not returning. “Utah businessman now back in the fold”. Written by: Carrie A. Moore. Dated: Apr 03, 2004.

I had a link too but it doesn’t seem to be working – They possibly have moved the article to the archives.

I hope you can tell us a little more about yourself and your journey in the introduction section.

[Anonymous]

Hi, Rob4Hope – Glad you’re here. :wave:

Rob4Hope wrote:

It does all come down to how much power you give those folks.

I end up back at the beginning. Why was I believing that they had the power to give me something (or the authority to tell me when to receive it), but I don’t believe they have the power to take anything of substance away from me?

[Anonymous]

I will post today and intro myself.

I have a history on apologetic sites, and this one seems like a good choice. Most of the concerns i have are contemporary. I know about this excommunication stuff because I am an X-ed man myself. I am unusual in that I have a very tiny, yet slowly growing, desire to return.

[Anonymous]

Ann wrote:

Hi, Rob4Hope – Glad you’re here. :wave:

Rob4Hope wrote:

It does all come down to how much power you give those folks.

I end up back at the beginning. Why was I believing that they had the power to give me something (or the authority to tell me when to receive it), but I don’t believe they have the power to take anything of substance away from me?

Ann,…I was drawn to this thread because I am living in this place myself now. The wording of the confirmation blessing,…the “Receive the Holy Ghost” is strange as it were. They don’t say: “We give you the gift of the Holy Ghost”…or, “We have the gift we give and say Receive it”….they don’t say this. They say: “Receive the Holy Ghost”.

I’m gunna be frank here…I don’t really understand this, and you have brought up a very interesting point. How can you be told to receive something if you don’t intrinsically have the power to receive it in the first place?

One of the things that is interesting, and which I have learned from, is the power wielded by the LDS faith is awesome depending on your perspective. I know people, for example, who are destroyed if they disqualify themselves from blessings, callings, recommends or whatever. Its like their life ends…and there is a disproportionate level of shame associated with their circumstance. What I am saying here is this: The LDS faith is “voluntary”. Period. The church has the power to throw you out,…to Excommunicate you. They do not, however, have the power to take your property, incarcerate you, or any of that stuff. Their power is to remove you from their ranks. And, for that matter, your involvement in their ranks is voluntary in the first place.

Now that I have been removed myself, I have re-examined my involvement throughout my life, and I am amazed at the power I gave the church in my life. The opinions of my peers–because they were “leaders”–has had WAY MORE influence in my life than was healthy. My entire definition of myself was through the LDS lens and perspective.

This has not been healthy for me,…and I have only discovered it now that I am no longer a member.

Thoughts?

[Anonymous]

Yep, we say that a lot here – and I point out regularly that the LDS Church is not unique in that way. People give power to many organizations and leaders in their lives, in many areas.

One of life’s central paradoxes is the need to give up control in some ways while maintaining ultimate control in all ways.

[Anonymous]

For me, the church was so integral to my life and my identity, that I did not think there were options to live life outside the church. I just thought that people who were ex’d were lost in the mists of darkness. There actually wasn’t a story about what happens when you get lost. Just from the believer’s perspective, they weren’t on that path clinging to the rail.

I think as we mature and see things differently, we see there are many paths, and many many (most) people on the earth doing good things we aren’t aware of outside the church. I have good friends in other religions that are better people than me or people I know in the church.

My point…all does not end outside the church.

But…the church has things to offer us, and one can seek to find goodness in life, in or out of the church, whatever works best for them.

Rob4Hope wrote:

The church has the power to throw you out,…to Excommunicate you. They do not, however, have the power to take your property, incarcerate you, or any of that stuff. Their power is to remove you from their ranks. And, for that matter, your involvement in their ranks is voluntary in the first place.

This is well said.

They have that power…but one does not need to think they have all power. Life goes on, and you can find goodness and peace in the world. God is bigger than the church.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

For me, the church was so integral to my life and my identity, that I did not think there were options to live life outside the church. I just thought that people who were ex’d were lost in the mists of darkness. There actually wasn’t a story about what happens when you get lost. Just from the believer’s perspective, they weren’t on that path clinging to the rail.

I think as we mature and see things differently, we see there are many paths, and many many (most) people on the earth doing good things we aren’t aware of outside the church. I have good friends in other religions that are better people than me or people I know in the church.

My point…all does not end outside the church.

But…the church has things to offer us, and one can seek to find goodness in life, in or out of the church, whatever works best for them.

Rob4Hope wrote:

The church has the power to throw you out,…to Excommunicate you. They do not, however, have the power to take your property, incarcerate you, or any of that stuff. Their power is to remove you from their ranks. And, for that matter, your involvement in their ranks is voluntary in the first place.

This is well said.

They have that power…but one does not need to think they have all power. Life goes on, and you can find goodness and peace in the world. God is bigger than the church.

Heber, it is sad the stigma that often DOES follow those around who have made mistakes. I have read multiple documents written by GA type people, most are from when I grew up–the culture then was very orthodox in SLC (where I grew up)–and in the interest of trying to protect people from sin, the pictures painted were dismal.

“it would be better if you were dead”…type of thing was discussed often. I have family members who honestly figured they were going to hell, so since they couldn’t do anything about it, why not just throw in the towel now and at least enjoy the journey. I mean, after all, what was their to lose?

Such thoughts, when someone gives up, can seem so foreign to those who are living and doing well, but for those who have made mistakes, it is anything but.

I want to confess something here for those who read this thread. I am an excommunicated man. Something that happened to me, and which I have learned to deal with, is that I no longer look to the church for support. Often LDS people can look to their LDS community (whatever that may be) for emotional and spiritual support. What happened to me is I simply found the well to be dry: there were too few who had depth inside; too few who understood; and often those who did couldn’t help if they wanted. I found support outside of the church, though often it came through other “broken” people.

I have felt my own locus of authority shift as I am trying to move past this place of turmoil. I have often marveled how a cheerful word, for example, can cheer a whole room up, breaking away the gloom. You know, I needed those words said to me many times, and they sometimes were, but often not. I no longer look outside of myself for those words of cheer. I choose to generate them myself if I can. AND…that has made a massive difference inside of me.

OK…so according to those other people out there,…those GA type people, being excommunicated is worse than being dead. Well, so be it. But, 2 good things have happened: 1) I know what it feels like, first hand, to feel damned to hell; 2) I can put my arms around others who feel this way, tell them I love them, and cry with them.

And, you can’t tell me that is not of value to those who are broken and hurt inside. I’ve been there. I know JUST how important such contact really is!

And when you feel someone tremble in your arms because they are broken and frightened,…don’t be telling me that love, even from the damned, is of no value.

PS>..Ok..had a little emotion come out in this thread. Read it with a grain of salt.

[Anonymous]

Rob4Hope – I wish you were closer so you could get a good hug. We all need that from someone from time to time.

[Anonymous]

LookingHard wrote:

Rob4Hope – I wish you were closer so you could get a good hug. We all need that from someone from time to time.

That is very kind. Thank you.

[Anonymous]

Now being a silverback gorilla I might kill you with a good hug though.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Now being a silverback gorilla I might kill you with a good hug though.

I haven’t I seen you in the old Samsonite luggage commercials? 😮

[Anonymous]

mom3 wrote:

Quote:

Now being a silverback gorilla I might kill you with a good hug though.

I haven’t I seen you in the old Samsonite luggage commercials? 😮

That’s IT! That is what my avatar should be…some Samsonite luggage!

YES!!!!

[Anonymous]

To get you started:

[attachment=1]sampsonite_01.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=0]sampsonite_02.jpg[/attachment]

:angel:

[Anonymous]

OK…so back on topic.

My SP was intentionally careful during my DC. He told me ahead of time that from beginning to end, it would be less than 15 min. No Kidding. Apparently he had been involved in those before, and realized the trauma that such courts could cause. For example, I know a woman who was tried for her membership in front of the Stake HC, and she was asked specific questions about her transgressions. She felt uttelyr humiliated, as though she was being looked at by a bunch of very dirty old men. Can you imagine that happening?…a single sister surrounded by 16 or 17 men,…being asked questions about sins?

I think that SP should be tried for HIS membership after that. That is disgusting to me, as well as repulsive!

Anyway, in my case, there were 17 men present, and my then wife was asked to come (AGAINST MY WISHES–which is something I would not tolerate ever again). Some general statements were made about my mistakes, several people were asked to share, and I was asked to leave. 10 min later, I was called into the SP office with him and his 2 counselors. They delivered the verdict, and I was told they woudl support me however they could if I tried to come back,..and that was that. Whole thing was about 15 min.

A couple of things have happened as a result of this, which is a tempering I guess. When I return (if I ever return–that is still not decided), I will be more insistent about my own situation. For example, if I am permitted to be rebaptised, I will ask that to happen immediately with only whoever my bishop will be, and the SP and one of his counselors. I do NOT want to have a meeting, a prayer, a talk,..and the whole deal. It is NOT the Church’s baptism,..it is mine. If they will not honor that request, I will not do it. Simple as that. From here on out, ordinances that are mine are MINE. Period.

Also, has anyone ever raised a hand in objection when someone was getting a calling at a local level? At this point, if I have reservations and if I am qualified through membership to cast a vote, if I don’t feel good about someone being called, I will not hesitate to raise my hand (with the intent to see if it can be resolved). I feel that way now because I know what it is to be on the outside…and I know what it feels like to be alone and have to stand alone. So, that has been a tempering experience for me in my life. It really has. What are they going to do to me?….ask me to leave? Sorry (I am trying to be respectful), but that makes me laugh.

Thoughts?

[Anonymous]

Quote:

Rob4Hope wrote: if I am permitted to be rebaptised, I will ask that to happen immediately with only whoever my bishop will be, and the SP and one of his counselors. I do NOT want to have a meeting, a prayer, a talk,..and the whole deal.

We were recently involved in a rebaptism. A few close friends showed up, the bishop was there, two missionaries showed up. There was a prayer, the baptism, confirmation. Afterward, those closest to the guy .. We all went out for brunch at a local diner.

Re-baptisms are much different than the traditional baptism.

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