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In my opinion, the real issue is around if the person is actively seeking out and wanting to fill their mind with these themes and pictures, or if they are just stumbling across it. We all get exposed to a lot of things, and should be filtering those as best we can, but it mostly a problem when it becomes an appetite that is specifically sought after. I guess the only thing I can think to compare it to is that I will watch R-rated movies, some have sex scenes. Always have in my adult life, because I don’t go by some rating system to decide for me what I should or what I should not watch, as if somebody else’s definition of what nudity or romance is porn and what is not for me. I think I know it when I see it, and like so many prior comments…it is a personal thing where that line is drawn for different people.
But I don’t specifically go out and look for movies with nudity in them to watch. But if some movies I choose to watch have some in it, it isn’t the end of the world because I’m an adult and can handle adult scenes. I do not always watch PG-13 movies and accept all of them as good. I make up my own mind of what is right for me to watch and what isn’t.
That may be off topic a little, because it is about R-rated movies, but I would think the concept is what I’m getting at. We don’t need someone else to define porn for us…we know what we shouldn’t watch, and we know we shouldn’t have an appetite for seeking it out…or else that is a red flag our mind is wanting something that is not healthy for us.
Probably more important than what I view once is what I am doing and what choices I’m making to fill my mind with positive things. I can’t be thinking bad things if I’m focusing on holy things all the time. Nor can I be growing in light and knowledge if I’m preoccupied with negative things.
Heber13 wrote:Probably more important than what I view once is what I am doing and what choices I’m making to fill my mind with positive things. I can’t be thinking bad things if I’m focusing on holy things all the time. Nor can I be growing in light and knowledge if I’m preoccupied with negative things.
Yeah, I like this and I think it goes little bit more than just “humming a primary song” like I was taught. I certainly think there is value in “keeping busy”, but I also have experienced the extreme “just do it” culture where one is so preoccupied with “doing” that one doesn’t leave time for thinking and meditation. Mormonism teaches personal prayer and meditation, but often the church culture pushes members to be so busy and engaged that this essential doctrine is neglected and pushed to the periphery, when in all reality, it should be the focus of all RELIGIOUS people.
cwald wrote:I certainly think there is value in “keeping busy”, but I also have experienced the extreme “just do it” culture where one is so preoccupied with “doing” that one doesn’t leave time for thinking and meditation. Mormonism teaches personal prayer and meditation, but often the church culture pushes members to be so busy and engaged that this essential doctrine is neglected and pushed to the periphery, when in all reality, it should be the focus of all RELIGIOUS people.
I agreecwald, I guess my point was that during those times you stop and meditate and think…is your mind at peace and on positive things, or are you preoccupied with thinking of the negative appetites (whether that is porn, or temptations, or hatred towards others, etc). That should tell a person if there is a problem in the mind or not. We covered a little of this in HP quorum yesterday where the lesson was on keeping pure thoughts and putting off the natural man. The example given was that when taking the family to a water park, it was very difficult for the instructor to look around the pool and not see beautiful and scantily clad women. As can be typical, the conversation got a little extreme, as the suggestions turned to brethren suggesting you do as Joseph did and flee…just leave the water park.
In my opinion…that’s too far. I should be able to be in a public place with my family and not live in fear that my eyes may wonder. Just go have fun and don’t get preoccupied with staring (which is freaky to think you would anyway in a public place unless you’re a psyco stalker
😯 ).My point is not to get so preoccupied with the fear of what is or what is not porn or the natural man, and just make sure that you are filling your mind with positive things and you seek the good, and when you stop to meditate on it, are you reflecting on those positive things … and give no heed to the rest, even though it exists at times around us in this world.
Learn to appreciate beauty without obsessing over physicality. Now, having said that, there really are some people who probably shouldn’t spend large amounts of time at the public pool or beach. If nudity or near nudity or contrived suggestiveness really does distract you, distance yourself from it until you can learn to divert your mind to something else – and the contrived suggestiveness is the most difficult for many.
I mentioned this before an another thread, but I spent time about a decade ago in a small village in the Amazon for a humanitarion medical mission. This village was completely isolated from the world, and had been for many centuries, reportedly. As it relates to sex, in every way, they were open about it. Imagine the pets we have and their approach…it was how the people from this village were. What it taught me was that our inhibitions, rules, fears, etc. are not “inborn,” they are taught. To a large degree, even our “excitability,” sex-related, is a response to what has been taught to be intimate, or off limits.
Through the years as I’ve digested my experience there, I’ve certainly come to “like” our system. I like that “it” is hidden from us — making the experience much more special to us. But I’ve also evolved to view “it” not as right or wrong, just culturally specific.
Somehow, I’m sure that relates to the thread….
cwald wrote:…FWIW: Pornography causes the release of the endorphin, dopamine. Porn triggers dopamine (the “craving neurochemical”) to stimulate the pleasure/reward circuitry in the brain…This is the same chemical reaction that happens when one uses cocaine. It is very addictive. …the body and then over-corrects itself by shutting down the natural process of dopamine production, which limits the naturally occurring release of the dopamine – or a natural high. This is also why pornography can be so damaging to relationships. One is basically manipulating their sexual biochemistry…
Old-Timer wrote:DA, I agree that there is much that objectively is porn no matter individual reactions and perspectives – but I also know too many people who truly are addicted to write it off as “only in the mind”…
…Finally, I just don’t think there is ANY redeeming value in objective or gratuitous porn – including the picture you mention. Nudity absolutely has merit and meaning and value; porn, not so, imo.
I wasn’t trying to say that the effects of porn are only in the mind, actually I believe it is a natural reaction similar to what cwald described but without quite so many negative side-effects on average. What I think is exaggerated and mostly imaginary are the ideas that porn is typically addictive in a harmful way and that it is some kind of slippery-slope that will automatically lead people’s lives into a downward spiral. My guess is that these ideas have been spread by busybodies that already object to porn on moral grounds and most of the evidence to support these conclusions is probably based on a few extreme examples, not the average Joe that looks at Playboys once in a while.
So let’s put these two quotes together… Rix wrote:What it taught me was that our inhibitions, rules, fears, etc. are not “inborn,” they are taught. To a large degree, even our “excitability,” sex-related, is a response to what has been taught to be intimate, or off limits.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:What I think is exaggerated and mostly imaginary are the ideas that porn is typically addictive in a harmful way and that it is some kind of slippery-slope that will automatically lead people’s lives into a downward spiral. My guess is that these ideas have been spread by busybodies that already object to porn on moral grounds and most of the evidence to support these conclusions is probably based on a few extreme examples, not the average Joe that looks at Playboys once in a while.
How would the Amazon villagers respond if they were given a playboy to look at. Would it be a big deal at all? Dirty naked people running around having sex is a common occurrence so why would the “porn” stimulate anybody? Would it? Perhaps because of our puritan roots, we have created this monster… and we have nourished it, especially within the church culture by making sex seem so taboo. “Immorality is next to murder on the sin chart…” Right? I think the brothern were obviously trying to stem the tide of the sexual revolution of the 60’s and 70’s, but still — the 70’s and 80’s were brutal for the “unchaste.” Remember the ol’ peanut butter and jelly sandwich analogy? I still have nightmares from that SS lesson.
Perhaps not directly related to porn…but One of my favorite Mormon Prophet quotes of all time:
Larry King questioning Pres. Hinckley: “What is your position on sex?”
President Hinckley stoically: “We believe in it.”
😆 😆 😆 😆 I really did love that man.
I have to say, I had mixed feelings about that interview. He didn’t exactly say anything silly or incriminating, but a lot of the answers were far too vague. It was a PR job, and reminded me of some of the woollier aspects of Anglicanism. Rix wrote:I mentioned this before an another thread, but I spent time about a decade ago in a small village in the Amazon for a humanitarion medical mission. This village was completely isolated from the world, and had been for many centuries, reportedly. As it relates to sex, in every way, they were open about it. Imagine the pets we have and their approach…it was how the people from this village were.
What it taught me was that our inhibitions, rules, fears, etc. are not “inborn,” they are taught. To a large degree, even our “excitability,” sex-related, is a response to what has been taught to be intimate, or off limits.
Through the years as I’ve digested my experience there, I’ve certainly come to “like” our system. I like that “it” is hidden from us — making the experience much more special to us. But I’ve also evolved to view “it” not as right or wrong, just culturally specific.
Somehow, I’m sure that relates to the thread….
Brilliant Rix! This is how I view it too.cwald wrote:Perhaps because of our puritan roots, we have created this monster… and we have nourished it, especially within the church culture by making sex seem so taboo. “Immorality is next to murder on the sin chart…” Right? I think the brothern were obviously trying to stem the tide of the sexual revolution of the 60’s and 70’s, but still — the 70’s and 80’s were brutal for the “unchaste.”
Well….I would say the roots go beyond the puritan roots of the new world, and the 60-70s generation.Quote:Matt. 5: 28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
I know that since the invention of photography, they started taking pictures to sell and make money based on the “natural man’s” appetite for this…again…to make money.
I would think prior to technology that delivers the images in increasing quality and ease, there were paintings, dancers, or whatever. The roots go back to the beginning of mankind as one of those vices that if left unchecked,
candrag a person into dark places. I think it is a natural evil if obsessed over (as Ray said), and there are real societal costs to this issue when left unchecked by moralists, not just something we made into something evil so we have something to talk about on Sunday. But like all other things, too many zealots can stir the pot, and create more an issue out of it, and handle it “Rush Limbaugh style” where they may have a point, but over-exaggerate it in order to make their point. Like many things, the masses get preached to about something that is usually just a small group that really have a problem with it. IMO. Maybe I’m naive.
For what it’s worth, most of the music videos just now strike me as “pornographic”, even though clothes are being kept on. It’s like there’s more focus on curvy women bumping and grinding than the actual music. I think the so called “sexual revolution” is a load of hooey. So people got to have sex before marriage. And? Turns out one of my ancestors was four months pregnant when she got married, and she lived in the early 19th century. It’s not revolutionary for ugly people, or for shy people, and it’s certainly not revolutionary for geeky types either. The more I think about it, the less revolutionary it is, in some ways. Women have to display themselves in certain clothes etc, until they wither, and the same handful of men get to have sex with large numbers of them. All the same while the corporations get to sell large amounts of clothing, perfume, beauty products etc to people who are either permanently single, or serial monogamists.
No real families, communities (other than swingers) come out of the sexual revolution. Just a bunch of people who get jaded in the end. You can have too much of a fun thing.
This is what the the sexual revolution is for most people – as seen in the lyrics of the song “At Seventeen”
http://www.guntheranderson.com/v/data/atsevent.htm “Immorality is next to murder on the sin chart…” –
Immorality surely means “sin” anyway. If it’s sexual stuff we’re talking about here, that’s part of immorality not the whole. Murder is immoral too.
But I don’t consider heavy petting to be next to murder as Spencer W. Kimball seems to in the “Miracle of Forgiveness”.
SamBee wrote:“Immorality is next to murder on the sin chart…” -Immorality surely means “sin” anyway. If it’s sexual stuff we’re talking about here, that’s part of immorality not the whole. Murder is immoral too.
True — let me clarify then, I was taught in the 80’s that “sex before marriage” was next to murder on the sin chart. The whole peanut butter sandwich analogy still to this day grosses me out. And I still remember how disgusted I felt about church while listening to some old guy pound the pulpit saying that it would be better for a girl to die struggling than to not fight and be a survivor of rape.
SamBee wrote:…But I don’t consider heavy petting to be next to murder as Spencer W. Kimball seems to in the “Miracle of Forgiveness”.
Hell, when it comes to “Miracle of Forgiveness” forget about the petting, that’s nothing — just wait until you get to the chapter that talks about masturbation…
👿 👿 👿 Like I said — the 80’s LDS church that I grew up in was brutal on the “unchaste”.
The whole idea that sexual sin is next to murder is just BAD interpretation of the passage in Alma that inspired it. Maybe I’ll do a post on that at some point.
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