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I was at boarding school for a while, and from what I know from there, just about any boy who claimed never to have masturbated was either a liar, or had something physically abnormal with them. It was heavily frowned upon – “a disgusting habit” – by teachers, but most pupils just looked upon it as a joke, and something that just happened. I’m just glad it wasn’t a single sex school. It would have caused more dilemmas, confusion etc about people’s sexuality. However, compared to severe bullying, theft or prejudice, it was a relatively minor misdemeanor in my book.
As for petting (which makes me think of zoos), it seemed to be going on all the time.
Heber13 wrote:cwald wrote:Perhaps because of our puritan roots, we have created this monster… and we have nourished it, especially within the church culture by making sex seem so taboo. “Immorality is next to murder on the sin chart…” Right? I think the brothern were obviously trying to stem the tide of the sexual revolution of the 60’s and 70’s, but still — the 70’s and 80’s were brutal for the “unchaste.”
Well….I would say the roots go beyond the puritan roots of the new world, and the 60-70s generation.Quote:Matt. 5: 28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
I know that since the invention of photography, they started taking pictures to sell and make money based on the “natural man’s” appetite for this…again…to make money.
But like all other things, too many zealots can stir the pot, and create more an issue out of it, …they may have a point, but over-exaggerate it in order to make their point.
My rationalization about this scripture is that it is basically talking about lusting after real women like your neighbor’s wife. That is something I would feel guilty about but to worry about an artificial diversion like porn as if it’s some kind of dangerous epidemic that needs to be stopped seems somewhat silly to me almost as if we need to ban cheesy romance novels with Fabio on the cover. I’m not trying to say that porn is actually a good thing or very worthwhile in general I just don’t believe that it is nearly as terrible or harmful as some people like to assume.
DA, in theory, for some individuals, I probably agree with you – but in practice, as a whole, I simply can’t. The porn industry is flat-out, irredeemably evil, imo – and porn really does destroy lives and marriages and families in many instances. Again, if you are talking about much of what would be considered “soft-core porn” – I’m not as adamant. I certainly am not adamant about generic nudity. However, industry/hard-core porn, and especially underage/child porn and non-consensual porn . . .
Grab the millstones, because I will line up to do the tying and drowning. You know that’s not typical of me, but I know enough of how that type of porn is made, and I’ve seen the effects first-hand of what can occur as a result within those who view it regularly – and that particular sin really is next to murder, imo.
Old-Timer wrote:The whole idea that sexual sin is next to murder is just BAD interpretation of the passage in Alma that inspired it. Maybe I’ll do a post on that at some point.
I would be interested in your take on this one. It is another one of those church issues that just doesn’t sit well with me. I have some recent stories of how this “doctrine” has affected some good folks in our branch, but I will wait to share as to not “jack” this thread.
I haven’t weighed in on this yet, but… The more that porn is pounded as the great evil the more of a problem it will become. The lack of any real discussion about root causes for porn addiction will make it impossible to overcome. It’s not like substance addiction where you just “stop”. We need to have intimacy which, for most men and many women, includes a healthy sexual relationship. For a healthy intimate sexual relationship to happen, for many, this will include “self-love”, ie masturbation. To pretend that what’s good for the goose is good for the gander, is naive and destructive.
In my marital relationship, we call this “taking care of ourselves”. And, this does not just mean masturbation. It means asking for what we need instead of hoping the other wants what we want. If the other doesn’t want “it”, without any possibility of that experience, we will get resentful and the downward cycle begins. Taking care of oneself includes being open, honest, direct, loving, and accepting. If I’m going to be home really late and my DW needs to go to bed before I get home, we’re on our own. She can take care of herself, I can take care of myself. What that means or what it looks like (sorry, don’t visualize
😳 ) could be vastly different or exactly the same.I think that the lack of openness and honesty around this issue for almost all religions will continue to leave marriages in disrepair. If a wife thinks her husband’s a perv because he masturbates, well, it’s game over.
Ironically, or not, when a couple can “take care of themselves” there is a level of intimacy and self-expression that is intensely different than a couple that hopes the other will take care of them.
Sorry for the thread-jack but I just see this question of porn as being a part of the bigger issue of intimacy. In that vein, I agree with those who stated earlier that without the religious taboo, porn is pretty uneventful. Though I do agree with Ray that the messiness of getting 18 year old girls into porn production is tragic and damages all of our humanity.
Old-Timer wrote:DA, in theory, for some individuals, I probably agree with you – but in practice, as a whole, I simply can’t. The porn industry is flat-out, irredeemably evil, imo…
Again, if you are talking about much of what would be considered “soft-core porn” – I’m not as adamant. I certainly am not adamant about generic nudity. However, industry/hard-core porn, and especially underage/child porn and non-consensual porn . . .
Grab the millstones, because I will line up to do the tying and drowning. You know that’s not typical of me, but I know enough of how that type of porn is made, and I’ve seen the effects first-hand of what can occur as a result within those who view it regularly – and that particular sin really is next to murder, imo.
As far as doubting the actual harm done by most porn on average, I’m talking about probably more than 90% of porn that actually sells and I really doubt that some of these examples you mention are very typical. These sound more like the absolute worst of the worst case scenarios. This kind of “guilt by association” rhetoric is misleading because I doubt that very many men who have ever looked at porn would approve of the exploitation of children or helpless unwilling victims. In fact, the only time I have ever heard of such a thing actually happening in real life is in a few rare cases on the news where people were arrested because this kind of thing is already illegal. On the other hand, the problem with trying to take on regular hard-core porn is that it currently makes way too much money to realistically expect to ever be able to eliminate it in America. My guess is that moral crusaders have already lost that battle in most reasonably free societies.
swimordie wrote:The more that porn is pounded as the great evil the more of a problem it will become. The lack of any real discussion about root causes for porn addiction will make it impossible to overcome. It’s not like substance addiction where you just “stop”…If a wife thinks her husband’s a perv because he masturbates, well, it’s game over.
Old-Timer wrote:DA, in theory, for some individuals, I probably agree with you – but in practice, as a whole, I simply can’t. The porn industry is flat-out, irredeemably evil, imo – and porn really does destroy lives and marriages and families in many instances.
Actually, I’m not surprised at all if more lives, marriages, and families are starting to be “destroyed” now supposedly all because of porn and I fully expect this trend to continue especially among Church members. However, I hesitate to put all of the blame here on men and their porn habits (John 8:3-11). When I hear the attitudes so many different women have on the subject of porn I have to laugh about it because otherwise I would cry. All I hear about from most women who comment on this is how this is such a serious problem that can and should be fixed once and for all or even that it is automatic grounds for divorce. Unrealistic expectations like this basically set people up for disappointment.
I don’t think most women really understand the appeal of visual porn to begin with; it just isn’t in their DNA the same way it is for men. Supposedly more gay men were buying Playgirl magazines than women ever did. Not only do they not get it, many women have also been taught from a young age that this is completely unacceptable behavior. Many men have been taught it is unacceptable as well but does that really stop them in the end? Sometimes but not always and it’s just as likely to make otherwise honest and decent men try to hide it and be deceptive in this one case.
A zero tolerance policy used to be more feasible but now porn is so easy to access on the internet that it’s getting harder for men to resist the temptation to sneak a peek. Why is it really any surprise that some of these stories haven’t ended very well? Are we really fighting the battles we can actually win here by trying to crack down on porn to the point of complete elimination? It’s almost like we are trying to deny the reality of basic human nature. Now I’m all for people having some self-control and common sense but some of the shame and utter condemnation being heaped on normal people simply for being human is harsh beyond belief as far as I’m concerned.
DA, I really would like to hear your suggtested solutions. I mean that. If you were to give a speech about how to approach the issue of porn, how would you do it? Are you advocating just not addressing it at all and de-stigmatizing totally its use? Are you saying, in essence, “Why fight it? It’s won.” I say this in jest a little, but it has an element of truth to it on some level generally: Out of 10 men, 6 have viewed porn, 3 won’t admit it, and one is visiting a therapist to figure out why he isn’t interested.
Now to take a stab at your question Ray. What would I preach if I had the pulpit?
You are right, you can’t say nothing and you can’t ignore it as a problem. Porn is not ideal, and it does damage relationships and intimacy. There is something fundamentally wrong with it on a spiritual level. I would like to lower the stakes though. Should a couple get divorced and ruin their family (devastating to children) if the husband looks at a playboy magazine once a month? I am not excusing that at all, but the potential consequences and damage, the suffering caused by divorce seem way out of proportion. It’s a problem. But how serious? I can’t emphasize enough that I am not excusing the behavior. It should be addressed. But in the end, it is a picture and an idea in someone’s head.
Instead of focusing so much attention, and amping up a brinkmanship quality like it is done currently — laying out the guilt and shame, this is all or nothing, one slip and you eternal salvation is in ruins … perhaps push people to see it as a more minor problem of human nature. Individuals should work on developing a desire for intimacy and sharing their souls with their spouse, of being vulnerable and being loved and enjoyed, and pushing that sexual expression is TOTALLY good and normal. That would be my preaching from the pulpit.
Porn is the lesser path. Go for the better experience.
Brian Johnston wrote:Porn is the lesser path. Go for the better experience.
Nice — I think you make some good points about how to discuss the issue when it comes up again in priesthood meeting – which, it seems, has been happening almost WEEKLY.
And oh yeah, in case you didn’t read the Church News this week — big article about the new church-ran porn self-help website. Sections in there for the addicted, the spouse of the addicted, youth, counselors, bishops and the casual surfer. I don’t have the paper here with me or I would have linked the website to this post.
Old-Timer wrote:DA, I really would like to hear your suggtested solutions. I mean that. If you were to give a speech about how to approach the issue of porn, how would you do it? Are you advocating just not addressing it at all and de-stigmatizing totally its use? Are you saying, in essence, “Why fight it? It’s won.”
I guess that’s the general idea but I wouldn’t put it quite that way in a speech. Actually, I don’t really think we need to go so far as raising the white flag or openly endorsing porn; I just think it would be better to set people’s expectations to understand that this happens more than people like to admit and that way it will be less of a shock to women when it does happen. The solution is simple: people should stop making this into more of an issue than it really needs to be. Some people act like it’s the end of the world if someone looks at porn. Can’t we be somewhat realistic here? Some of the complete denial and ignorance about this is not really helping the situation. The truth is that this is a fairly common thing for perfectly normal men to do.
In many cases porn is only addictive in the sense that it is hard for some men to stop looking at and even if they stop for years the desire is still there so they can easily fall back into the same habit again without warning. Most real addictions actually have negative effects on people’s health and/or everyday lives. This gives people some real justification for the need to overcome the addiction. However, this is not necessarily the case at all with porn. If someone is single or no one else knows about it what difference does porn really make in the grand scheme of things? In reality it doesn’t really have much of an effect on anything.
The real collateral damage occurs when wives find out about their husband’s secret porn habit and can’t handle the truth. Is this kind of overreaction really necessary to the point of causing divorces? To me that sounds almost like saying if someone steals a candy bar we need to crucify them. Also, even if you get a divorce over this there’s a pretty good chance that your next husband will actually have the same “problem” regardless of whether you know about it or not.
Pornography is a commodity not that much different than drugs or alcohol. Demand is fueled by availability and marketing and a view of sexuality that has been warped and twisted and made into something unnatural and unhealthy. Demonizing it will have marginal effect in reducing use and trying to restrict it can have the opposite effect as it did with alcohol and is probably doing with some drugs. I think the only answer to pornography is a re education of people about what is healthy and normal about sexuality, an understanding that nudity does not equal sexuality, and an acceptance of the body and recognition of the fraud that’s been perpetuated about how we should look and act. There still exists this dichotomy about the body/sexuality being evil and dirty and with the mere utterance of the word “yes” in the temple becoming holy and pure. IMHO.
Okay, I’ll steer this back to the original subject matter, which is along the lines of “which of my PG-13 films should I be throwing out?!” But on the porn industry in general, I think there is a lot of hypocrisy about this in society. It’s alright to pay female workers far less than men, and it’s alright to hire secretaries and assistants on the basis of beauty, and it’s alright for a millionaire to buy jewels or clothes worth thousands for his girlfriend or trophy wife, and it’s alright to pay women bog standard wages, but as soon as a woman gets into a transaction officially involving sex, which may or may not be well paid… then it’s “no no, we can’t do that!!!”
In some cases, the women are clearly exploited and are being trafficked by the Russian mafia and beaten etc, but in others, they’re actually making more money and perhaps even feeling better about themselves (even if it is “sinful”) than if they had been given a bottom rung job cleaning toilets on minimum pay.
It’s a bit like polygamy – multiple sexual partners = good (in modern consumerist society); multiple wives = bad.
SamBee wrote:…they’re actually making more money and perhaps even feeling better about themselves (even if it is “sinful”) than if they had been given a bottom rung job cleaning toilets on minimum pay.
I don’t know, I wonder what goes on in the psyche of a porn actress. I’ve never personally known one. I’m talking hard-core porn – do you really believe they have become so jaded that they no longer “feel” that what they are doing is wrong? Did they ever feel it is was wrong? I believe everyone is inherently programmed to know “right from wrong”, and we have make those choices – and I just can’t fathom one feeling “good” about mixing it up in the porn industry. Which I guess comes back to the question, “is pornography wrong?” It certainly is in my book, but I don’t think, as most here have also stated, that it is a black and white issue – however, I’m not sure I can totally agree with the DA that it is “minor” and that it “doesn’t really have much of an effect on anything.” I just don’t know, from what I understand about biochemisty, I just can’t buy into that.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:I just think it would be better to set people’s expectations to understand that this happens more than people like to admit and that way it will be less of a shock to women when it does happen. .. Some of the complete denial and ignorance about this is not really helping the situation. The truth is that this is a fairly common thing for perfectly normal men to do.
The real collateral damage occurs when wives find out about their husband’s secret porn habit and can’t handle the truth. Is this kind of overreaction really necessary to the point of causing divorces? … Also, even if you get a divorce over this there’s a pretty good chance that your next husband will actually have the same “problem” regardless of whether you know about it or not.
Now here is something I CAN agree with. The LDS church has certainly set up a huge danger and pitfall in marriages because of the hardcore stance on porn. I hate to think of the number of divorces that I’ve seen first hand that have “stemmed” from wives
angerover their husbands mixed up in viewing pornography. Yes, there were other issues too, in some of those cases, but I know SEVERAL cases where the “porn” was the primary accusation and issue why the wife was filing for the divorce. The porn viewing, in the eyes of many of these women, was akin to adultery! These women literally felt “betrayed” by their husbands act of viewing porn. Porn = betrayal and adultery? I think the church has tried to put the stopper in this, and is now counseling women that “perhaps” porn is NOT a valid excuse to dump their marriage – but it will take some time and some “reeducation” from the church leaders, from the top, to correct some of these monsters we have created for ourselves.
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