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Thanks Cwald. There are so many LDS sites, that I have to cherry pick which ones are worth looking at. I have looked at a few of the articles which seem to deal with stuff and questions of interest to me.
cwald wrote:Pretty interesting article about porn and the effect on spouses on MM. I actually found the comments more interesting than the article itself. If you’re interested it can be found here.
http://mormonmatters.org/2010/05/19/the-mormon-therapist-on-effects-of-pornography-use-on-the-spouse/ ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://mormonmatters.org/2010/05/19/the-mormon-therapist-on-effects-of-pornography-use-on-the-spouse/ This article and the comments were very interesting indeed. To me they mostly just provide more confirmation for what I already believed about this, namely that hypersensitive busybodies will continue to blow this issue way out of proportion and make it into much more of a problem than it really needs to be. The Church is not really helping the situation by spreading the idea that this is a very serious sin similar to adultery and that it is typically an unhealthy “addiction” as well. These myths and the neo-puritan culture that has developed basically perpetuate a vicious cycle of ignorance, denial, dishonesty, and outright hypocrisy.
Now there is a major discrepancy between what people assume should happen in an ideal world and what actually happens in real life. Women (especially LDS women) are still largely ignorant of the fact that this is just the way men are and this is what many of them do when no one is looking. Because they don’t like porn themselves many women assume that any man (or teenage boy) that does like it must have something seriously wrong with him when it is actually a fairly common behavior nowadays.
In reality, the simple truth is that either God himself or nature made men this way because it is basically good for the survival of the species. Marriage by itself is not necessarily a realistic cure for this supposed “problem” so to avoid unnecessary embarrassment the most painless solution for many men will simply be to try not to get caught by hiding it and covering their tracks. My advice to anti-porn crusaders is “good luck with that.” Personally, I’m not going to lose any sleep over the fact that men have always liked porn and probably always will whether they manage to resist the temptation to look at it or not.
I have read this thread with interest, and wanted to say thanks to everyone for sharing your honest views – I have have appreciated reading them. I thought I would add a link that some might find useful. I see in this thread there are differing opinions about what porn is, and particularly whether all porn use is normal (for men in particular), or whether some forms of porn can have a negative effect for some people and some relationships. I understand that people have different experiences in this respect. The perspective in the article is interesting to me because it is written by a therapist who is not biased in the way some feel that LDS women generally are. This therapist isn’t LDS, and started out her career “pro-porn”, so her explanation of why she has come to view today’s hard-core porn as negative is articulated in a way that might shed some light on this perspective for those who don’t “get” others’ negative stance on porn, or don’t experience it negatively themselves. Whether you agree with her or not, it might at least help show where some of us are coming from in feeling porn can be harmful to some who consume it, or their intimate partners who feel its effects negatively.
http://www.alternet.org/sex/146957/is_porn_bad_for_you?page=1 ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.alternet.org/sex/146957/is_porn_bad_for_you?page=1 Hi Bright Blue, basically my point is not to look at the hard end of the spectrum (downright obvious), but the softer end of the spectrum which veers into art, and mainstream films. I think “Basic Instinct” is a pornographic film, but I do not consider Terminator I such, even though it has some nudity in it. Some people in the church would say that they both are.
brightblue, I just want to thank you for the general tone of your comment. That’s all. 
Thanks Ray. I’m sorry SamBee, I guess I was focusing my comment on parts of the thread that didn’t necessarily address your original question. To put my comment back on topic, I would say the article I posted includes a therapist’s perspective on what she considers to be unhealthy porn vs. material that is sexually explicit, but which from her perspective is constructive rather than destructive. She does a good job explaining how and why she has come to see them differently. I think your question is important because when people talk about “porn” they may not be defining it the same way, which can lead to misunderstanding. As someone who has studied art I feel a very important distinction exists for me. I have encountered many instances of literature, visual art, or film that have nudity, and intense sensual or sexual content, but which I experience as uplifting, important, instructive, profound, beautiful, insightful, or meaningful on a personal level. This seems to be what you are saying too. But I am really careful about this, because as you pointed out there are so many things (particularly online) which are just meant to overwhelm the senses with extremes, distortions, intensity, or shock-value which have no other meaning and feel negative and destructive to me. Since there are lots of things between the extremes, your question is a hard one which I don’t see as having one answer. Where do we draw the line? I think it is most common in the LDS culture at large to draw a pretty conservative line because it is more clear, and less risky. That works well for a lot of people, and might make the most sense as an institution-wide solution to your question. I think I draw my line a little differently, by careful attention to how something makes me feel spiritually and emotionally, and how it affects my feelings for myself and my spouse, rather than simply avoiding anything that has nudity or sexual content. Steering clear of things that overwhelm or degrade my sensitivities is really important to me, but I feel some sexually oriented things are ok which my more conservative friends might not feel are appropriate. Not everyone has the same sensitivity – so that would mean other people would end up with a different comfort level than mine. I guess I’m saying I think you have a great question, but I don’t have a solid, singular answer. I can only share how I approach the question for myself. When I hear church leaders talk about “porn” I hear that as meaning anything that is blatant hard-core porn, or anything else that elicits negative thoughts or distracts from my relationship with my spouse, which I have to define for myself. That is what works for me – I hope that makes sense.
brightblue wrote:…I see in this thread there are differing opinions about what porn is, and particularly whether all porn use is normal (for men in particular), or whether some forms of porn can have a negative effect for some people and some relationships. I understand that people have different experiences in this respect. The perspective in the article is interesting to me because
it is written by a therapist who is not biased in the way some feel that LDS women generally are.This therapist isn’t LDS, and started out her career “pro-porn”, so her explanation of why she has come to view today’s hard-core porn as negative is articulated in a way that might shed some light on this perspective for those who don’t “get” others’ negative stance on porn, or don’t experience it negatively themselves.Whether you agree with her or not, it might at least help show where some of us are coming from in feeling porn can be harmful to some who consume it, or their intimate partners who feel its effects negatively… Interesting, especially some of the cynical comments by militant atheists about this article. I guess my question is what if someone is single or their wife doesn’t really care that much about it or no one that would disapprove knows about it and they aren’t experiencing any noticeable negative effects or spending too much time or money on porn? Where is the harm in a case like that? It doesn’t look like the article addresses examples like this very well to explain why anyone that doesn’t believe porn is doing any significant harm in their case should really want to stop looking at it.
Because this therapist’s job basically involved listening to so many of the worst negative experiences and emotions related to porn it doesn’t really surprise me that she would react almost the same way the Church has so far even if she doesn’t have any particularly strong religious or feminist motivations. So, like the Church, she has come to the conclusion that porn is supposedly bad and bad for you and that men should just learn to control themselves because when they don’t it too often results in real pain and suffering for their wives.
Of course, anyone that doesn’t believe porn is really that bad based on their own experience is typically not going to pay a psychotherapist to listen to them complain about it so that’s why the author of this article probably doesn’t hear the other side of the story nearly as much. However, I know for a fact that there are many men like this and that’s why I don’t believe porn is really that harmful by itself in most cases where men look at it occasionally. It looks like the worst problems related to porn typically only manifest when women that already disapprove of it find out about it which is all the more reason for men to hide it and deny that they like it and we are left with vicious cycle of demonization, dishonesty, and overreactions.
Why not try to cure women of their unrealistic porno-phobia instead? I just don’t see how the basic desire can ever be permanently cured simply by telling men this is unacceptable when the behavior comes naturally to them. Even if you succeed in training one man to avoid it there will always be many more that don’t really want to stop and don’t understand why they should be expected to. That’s why I just don’t see the long-term value and wisdom in trying to shelter women in a protective bubble so that they expect things to be significantly different than they truly are in reality and then they will never really understand that this is just the way men are and this is what many perfectly normal men do sometimes so there is no good reason to take it personally or make such a big deal out of it.
DevilsAdvocate: thank you for your response to my comment. You raise questions that I think are common and important – enough so that I want to try and respond with my perspective. I’ll try to just do it in one post and leave it at that so I don’t steer the whole thread off-topic. I’m just speaking from my experience here – I don’t expect everyone to have the same experience. For clarity, when I use the term porn, I am talking about hard-core porn (primarily videographic). The way you state your views, it sounds like you are saying there are lots of people who use porn and don’t experience any problems. In fact, the only time problems arise it is because women don’t understand men, have a “porno-phobia”, overreact to it, and cause undue turmoil. Educating or disillusioning women about the realities of male sexuality is the solution. While I agree there are people who use porn and don’t experience any problems, and education is definitely needed, I don’t entirely share your view on the second assertion (but in some part I do, which I will get to in a second). Here are my thoughts:
– In my understanding of the article I linked before, the therapist is not only talking about how porn affects wives, she is also saying it sometimes causes negative effects and experiences for men she is counseling. I’ve read men’s self-reports of these effects in other places too. A sense of loss of control, the unwanted intrusion of porn thoughts into their normal life, a reduction of interest or arousal in normal real-life interactions, or a need for sex to mimic porn to be arousing. In the article she also lists problems like “losing interest in their partner, experiencing a compulsive need for sex, and getting into risky and hurtful sexual practices.” This is worrisome and troubling to them, independent of their partners’ reaction to porn use, and in one study I read, these effects were also reported by single men. Because in early therapy models, porn was assumed to be entirely harmless, the therapist in the article said these effects took her by surprise. “Increasing numbers of clients report that porn has become ‘the great spoiler’ for them sexually by spawning unhealthy interests and reducing their natural responsiveness. One man confided that he could no longer [get turned on] with a real partner. ‘I want to go back to how it used to be before I was into porn—when just being near a woman I cared about turned me on. How can I get my old sexuality back?’ he asked. Another told me he’d probably remain single all his life: ‘I’ve lost all interest in dating. Porn is easier and more convenient than dealing with actual people. And even if I met a nice woman, I doubt she’d really want me, given how twisted my sexual desires have become’.” These effects are not universally experienced, of course, but the point is I don’t believe they are caused by women’s expectations.
– I don’t believe just knowing that her husband has seen something pornographic is the primary reason for the woman’s intense negative reaction in the article I linked. In my experience, it is when the man develops a growing relationship with porn, and it changes him and his behaviors and expectations, and alters the way he relates to his wife that she experiences such deep hurt and agony and feelings of betrayal, abandonment, rejection, or inadequacy. Men don’t always perceive the change in themselves, but their wives often do. From
http://lifestarstgeorge.com/blog/?p=233http://lifestarstgeorge.com/blog/?p=233” class=”bbcode_url”> – Because it is so available, and because parents often only cover the rudimentary basics in sex education, porn has become a primary source many young people turn to when learning about sex, which extends into adulthood and marriage. I view it as a huge problem that we don’t have enough sources to go to for direct, comprehensive, realistic, balanced, healthy, clear information and answers about sex, and that we don’t make available enough quality education to help both men and women develop sexually satisfying relationships. In my view we also don’t celebrate the beauty and power of the committed sexual bond enough through appropriate artistic and educational avenues. People looking to learn about sex sometimes find available sources inadequate or unclear, then turn to porn, and too often come away with a distorted sense of what real life sex is and should be – particularly what “should” turn women on in real life, what behaviors women should accept from men, what is appropriate for men to expect from women, and the sense that sexuality is primarily a physiological response, so we can safely disregard the relational psychology involved. From the article I originally linked: “Because of cultural shame and silence, children aren’t receiving messages informing them that there’s a difference between porn fantasies and the real world, where interpersonal dynamics matter and sex has consequences. Without these touchstones, kids may fail to realize how harmful and unfair it is to measure their own sexuality (or anyone else’s) against porn standards and how dangerous it can be to try to mimic what they see in porn.” This can lead to serious problems: “As my colleagues and I discovered in our interviews, striking numbers of young women are participating in unwanted sex—either particular acts they dislike or more frequent intercourse than they’d prefer, or mimicking porn” (from
http://www.slate.com/id/2286240/pagenum/2http://www.slate.com/id/2286240/pagenum/2” class=”bbcode_url”> http://lifestarstgeorge.com/blog/?p=233http://lifestarstgeorge.com/blog/?p=233” class=”bbcode_url”> – I have often encountered an attitude that women need to “just get over it”. This approach of saying relationship problems relating to porn are entirely contained in women’s expectations feels incomplete and unfair to me. Both men and women need better preparation and education. A woman has a right to set boundaries for what she feels comfortable with in her own intimate relationship, and since porn use can and often does affect her, she and her partner should able to communicate openly and respect each others’ needs here. While it is totally true to say porn is highly stimulating for most males and because of its availability it has become very common for people to view it, it is not true to say that men categorically “need” to use internet porn, unless they have built this need up for themselves. Before the internet age (which is incredibly recent – within this generation), most men had virtually no access to the kinds or quantity of material they have access to now. Porn existed, but there were big differences from past to present in what most people would be consuming, and how often. If a guy is single or feels his sexual needs are not being met for any reason, I don’t believe that means porn is necessarily the best or only universal solution.
All of the above is leading me to make the point that a woman should have the right to negotiate with her husband about her comfort level with his porn use, and vice-versa if she is a porn user (preferences will be influenced by religious values, past experience, and personal sensitivity, which will widely vary among people with different backgrounds). I do believe there are couples who don’t have a problem with it and are honest with each other about that. But because problems like those I noted above can be devastating, it is not unfair for religious institutions to urge individuals to avoid porn and thereby avoid its potential associated problems. Since this is a value they are taught, for LDS and other religious couples, presumably most of the time there will be an expectation that both partners will avoid porn use entirely. I genuinely believe a husband who cares about women in general and his wife’s well-being in particular will make it a priority to accommodate her feelings in that regard, whatever their mutual values are. NOW, ALL THAT BEING SAID. There is a flip side which I believe is also important, and which I suspect is underlying the point you are trying to make. It is something that is not emphasized nearly enough, in my opinion. It is certainly hard for some girls to do, but it is only fair. Sometimes this right to come to an agreement with her husband instead turns into an all-or-nothing kind of a feeling, something like: “if I ever find out my husband uses porn even once, then I will never trust him again or view him as a good man or believe that he loves me – it will ruin our relationship forever.” If despite their mutual expectations about it, a guy trips up and looks at porn a time or two, while it is fair for a wife to feel hurt and need him to acknowledge her pain, in my opinion it is not fair, not helpful, not compassionate to treat him as though he is loathsome and run as though irreparable damage has automatically been done. It doesn’t help to make him afraid to or unable to turn to her for support. Like you seem to be saying, occasional exposure is not necessarily enough to lead to the problems I talked about above, particularly if he can talk about it, is sensitive to his wife’s needs and feelings, and in return is met with love, understanding and support. Even if hurt, she can and hopefully will try to understand what he is dealing with in our culture where avoiding porn is not a simple thing to do – in fact, can be an almost herculean expectation – particularly at times of high stress, times he feels rejected or his self-esteem is low, times he feels like a failure, or if he has had a history of porn use. A wife who works toward understanding and having compassion and support for his efforts, and (despite how hard it genuinely is), trying not to take it personally that the temptation is real and a part of modern life will go a long way in helping him succeed in living up to their mutual expectations. While he should make genuine, concerted efforts to be honest and true to her needs and their mutual values, she should make the equally challenging efforts to support him in his quest while treating honest missteps with understanding and a measure of compassion and real support. She can certainly still be honest about things that hurt, and expect him to acknowledge that pain, but she should be equally able to hear and see and acknowledge the monumental efforts he is making for their relationship and reciprocate by not letting a misstep become the only thing that matters. All this is assuming he is actually trying to honor her needs, which I honestly believe most guys want to do and can succeed at, especially if they feel loved, supported, understood, admired, wanted, and don’t feel condemned for every temptation they face along the path. I know not everyone has the same experiences so each couple will have to figure things out for their situation, but I think almost universally, both husbands and wives benefit from real education, real understanding, compassion for each others’ needs and trials and efforts, and mutual accommodation.
That’s my (probably over-expounded) view, thanks for letting me share. You can all feel free to go back to the original intent of this thread.
:thumbup: Quote:That’s my (probably over-expounded) view
Wow! That is the longest post I have ever read. Fortunately, it’s a good one, well done, and very interesting. – otherwise, I would be asking for the cliff notes. I think you make some very good points.
I just watched The Man who Fell to Earth, which is an excellent film, although I couldn’t really recommend it to church members because there was so much nudity and sex in it. (Even Rip Torn’s equipment is on display at one point) I don’t recall there being so much nudity in it, but I did see the directors’ cut. It’s a pity really, because it is a good film, dated in some parts, but a kind of Christian allegory. David Bowie’s character ends up more and more corrupted. Maybe he should have lived the word of wisdom!
brightblue wrote:DevilsAdvocate: thank you for your response to my comment. You raise questions that I think are common and important – enough so that I want to try and respond with my perspective. I’ll try to just do it in one post and leave it at that so I don’t steer the whole thread off-topic…the therapist is not only talking about how porn affects wives, she is also saying it sometimes causes negative effects and experiences for men she is counseling…porn has become a primary source many young people turn to when learning about sex, which extends into adulthood and marriage…People looking to learn about sex sometimes find available sources inadequate or unclear, then turn to porn, and too often come away with a distorted sense of what real life sex is and should be – particularly what “should” turn women on in real life, what behaviors women should accept from men, what is appropriate for men to expect from women…
I’m just saying sometimes putting emphasis on teaching women to accommodate men’s nature without giving equal regard for the kind of education guys are getting can become really problematic.–
I have often encountered an attitude that women need to “just get over it”. This approach of saying relationship problems relating to porn are entirely contained in women’s expectations feels incomplete and unfair to me…A woman has a right to set boundaries for what she feels comfortable with in her own intimate relationship, and since porn use can and often does affect her, she and her partner should able to communicate openly and respect each others’ needs here…a woman should have the right to negotiate with her husband about her comfort level with his porn use… it is not unfair for religious institutions to urge individuals to avoid porn and thereby avoid its potential associated problems…for LDS and other religious couples, presumably most of the time there will be an expectation that both partners will avoid porn use entirely.I genuinely believe a husband who cares about women in general and his wife’s well-being in particular will make it a priority to accommodate her feelings in that regard… It’s probably too late to worry that much about trying to keep this thread focused on the original topic but personally I think it’s all related even though it doesn’t always seem like it. The original question as I understand it is basically where do we draw the line as far as what is considered bad and unacceptable when it comes to sex and nudity in entertainment media? What we label porn is often perceived as having gone too far in the selling of sex to the point that many people just don’t like it. This leads directly to follow-up questions such as what makes porn so bad to begin with even if something really is pornographic and how exactly do we know this?
The problem is that not everyone is going agree on matters of opinion about what is bad, acceptable, etc. or not and why. Certainly, if you don’t like porn because it makes you feel bad or it is having a negative impact on your everyday life, relationships, etc. then it probably is a good idea to cut back or avoid it altogether but what I don’t agree with at all is some of the self-righteous indignation people have concerning others’ choices and behavior to the point that they feel like they need to be busybodies about it and try to impose their own expectations on everyone else as a general rule. To be honest, I can’t stand some of the shows my wife watches but does that mean I need to tell her she can’t watch them just because I don’t like it or would it be better for me to just go to another room and watch something else instead?
As far as some people picking up sex education and real-life relationship expectations from porn my suggestion would be, “don’t do that.” Just because people see murders acted out on TV it doesn’t mean that most of them will ever be convinced it’s a good idea to mimic this behavior. I think most people can figure out that some of these ideas are not very realistic more than we give them credit for and it would probably be easier for women to just tell men if they don’t appreciate something than to try to get rid of porn completely as a solution to this problem. The main reason I think more women really should “get over it” is not because I don’t have any sympathy for their pain and suffering but precisely because I do feel bad about what is happening now that the internet has made porn so fast and easy to access and I think letting go of unrealistic expectations will actually help ease the pain and reduce the disappointments over the long run.
Basically, the truth is that complete abstinence is just not going to happen anymore for an increasing number of men. Maybe pretending that most LDS men don’t ever look at porn will make LDS women feel better in the short-term but this facade only makes things that much worse when they find out this is not really the case and feel like they’ve been betrayed and can’t really trust or respect their husband the same way anymore. One thing I would definitely do differently if I wasn’t already married is never promise that I wouldn’t look at porn anymore, that way if any potential wife couldn’t deal with that up front then I’d rather just move on and look elsewhere for someone that doesn’t think this is quite so serious and important to avoid. It’s easy for men to make promises like this under duress but it’s not nearly as easy to keep these promises once reality sets in that “never again” can start to feel like such a long time.
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