What is sin?

[Anonymous]

SD started a thread about “how do you feel when you sin.” I’ve been trying to answer the question, but I can’t, because I don’t even really know what sin is. I know what the LDS church definition of sin is, but, I reject it and don’t believe it.

I guess my opinion would be that sin is an action that one does to purposely cause unjust physical, emotional, spiritual or financial harm to another person.

Thoughts?

[Anonymous]

This if from the Anglican/Episcopal Book of Common Prayer and I think is a good take on it.

Q. What is sin?

A. Sin is the seeking of our own will instead of the will of God, thus distorting our relationship with God, with other people, and with all creation.

Q. How does sin have power over us?

A. Sin has power over us because we lose our liberty when our relationship with God is distorted.

[Anonymous]

cwald, I’d be interested to hear why you reject the church’s definition?

I don’t think we should get confused with sin vs unethical behavior, or redefine the meaning of sin. Sin is sin.

According to Merriam-Wester:

Quote:

1. an offense against religious or moral law

2. a transgression of the law of God

It involves understanding what the laws are in order to knowing if you are violating them or not. It gets more complex when some laws are spiritual in nature or depend on where your heart is with God to know if you violate them or not.

For example, in Priesthood yesterday we discussed the Sabbath Day. The question was raised…is it is sin to watch TV on Sunday. There was lots of discussion, which frankly almost made my head explode.

Bottom line…to some it is a sin, to some it is not. Because some people think it is an offense to breaking the Sabbath Day, but others do not see any law written that states it is a law to not watch TV, therefore it cannot be a sin. The frustrating thing for some people is it becomes a personal thing…when some want it fair and equal for everyone…and therefore want the laws institutionalized.

I prefer to keep them personal between God and myself.

Personally, I think this is why the church holds on to things like Tithing and WoW…they are measurable standards that one can use to be one aspect of obedience to a clearly stated law, regardless of whether those laws are tied to any eternal truths.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

…I’d be interested to hear why you reject the church’s definition?

I don’t think we should get confused with sin vs unethical behavior, or redefine the meaning of sin. Sin is sin.

For example, in Priesthood yesterday we discussed the Sabbath Day. The question was raised…is it is sin to watch TV on Sunday. There was lots of discussion, which frankly almost made my head explode.

Bottom line…to some it is a sin, to some it is not. Because some people think it is an offense to breaking the Sabbath Day, but others do not see any law written that states it is a law to not watch TV, therefore it cannot be a sin. The frustrating thing for some people is it becomes a personal thing…when some want it fair and equal for everyone…and therefore want the laws institutionalized.

Personally, I think this is why the church holds on to things like Tithing and WoW…they are measurable standards that one can use to be one aspect of obedience to a clearly stated law, regardless of whether those laws are tied to any eternal truths.

I would define sin as basically doing something that whatever religious group you belong to considers to be wrong. So even if you think the behavior was justified other members of the group are not likely to approve of it because they have been taught that it is unacceptable. Naturally, different groups have different ideas about what exactly is a sin or not. This doesn’t necessary mean that all supposed sins are equally valid to identify as such simply because none of these things are absolute rules that everyone can agree on. For example, in my opinion some of the 10 commandments that condemn murder, adultery, stealing, lying, etc. are much more worthwhile or useful to the majority of people than the “commandment” that we shouldn’t drink coffee.

The real test is what will happen if people don’t follow these rules. In the case of what I would consider to be real sins someone is a victim of real injustice as a result of the sins and it could also lead to out-of-control hatred, vengeance, etc. in the worst cases. On average, some things really are bad for the majority even if some individuals can get away with it without any direct negative consequences. On the other hand, if we ask why exactly it is so important for us to pay exactly 10% of our income as tithing and not ever drink coffee the main reason we are really left with is simply because Church leaders said so. That’s why these things are imaginary sins in my opinion because nothing bad will ever happen in most cases if you disobey these rules.

[Anonymous]

I always thought that doing the opposite of the 10 commandments is what was considered sin. And before my disaffection it was also anything that was contrary to the commandments that we have in our LDS culture (WoW).

That is my “black and white answer”.

But then you have the other things that are not necessarily commandments, but pretty strong suggestions like “treat others the way you would be treated”. That isn’t as easy to gauge the “sinfulness” of.

[Anonymous]

I look at sin as going against the will of God.

I look at “the will of God” a little differently than I used to — and it is continuously evolving. “God is the source of everything good” may do for now.

Sin for me has less to do with what some authority figure on earth says, and has more to do with what God would actually say [to me]. After which I try to honestly seek.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

cwald, I’d be interested to hear why you reject the church’s definition?

I don’t think we should get confused with sin vs unethical behavior, or redefine the meaning of sin. Sin is sin.

Well, I guess I will have to disagree with this thought. Sin certainly is NOT sin, especially in the LDS church. I think it is reasonable to conclude that the church teaches, or at least the membership BELIEVES that sin is going against the word of god, and since the prophets speak for the lord, than not following the prophet is a sin. (by my own voice or the voice of my servants, it is the same)

I think this is true –

Quote:

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

I would define sin as basically doing something that whatever religious group you belong to considers to be wrong. So even if you think the behavior was justified other members of the group are not likely to approve of it because they have been taught that it is unacceptable. quote]

That is why I reject the LDS churches standard and definition of sin. And if we want to argue culture vs doctrine so be it, but please, I really don’t need someone here trying to tell me that our people DO NOT believe that drinking a beer or skipping their church meetings to watch football on sunday or m-ing (won’t spell it out for Sam’s benefit) etc etc is NOT a sin. The prophet has told us what to do, and if we don’t follow that advice, in the LDS culture, that is a sin. And it is so much sin, in the case of m-ing and drinking a glass of wine, that it will keep one from being with their family forever and out of the CK, as well as disqualify one for leadership positions in the church. That must be pretty darn serious in God’s eye to tell folks they will not be saved in the CK.

I reject that notion 100%.

Oh course, many of us here believe that tithing and WofW and such are nothing more than man-made commandments that the church uses to control members behavior, and use as a gauge to see who will be obedient to authority. Are we wrong or do the leaders really believe we are offending god and our fellow man when we drink a cup of coffee or tea. And if the church leaders SERIOUSLY don’t believe they are sins in God’s eye, yet continue to impose and enforce them on the membership in regards to TR/salvation, than they are committing ONE HELL OF SIN. See Doug’s signature line.

[Anonymous]

Orson wrote:

I look at sin as going against the will of God.

I look at “the will of God” a little differently than I used to — and it is continuously evolving. “God is the source of everything good” may do for now.

Sin for me has less to do with what some authority figure on earth says, and has more to do with what God would actually say [to me]. After which I try to honestly seek.

I think this is well said – and I believe very similar.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

That is why I reject the LDS churches standard and definition of sin. And if we want to argue culture vs doctrine so be it, but please, I really don’t need someone here trying to tell me that our people DO NOT believe that drinking a beer or skipping their church meetings to watch football on sunday or m-ing (won’t spell it out for Sam’s benefit) etc etc is NOT a sin. The prophet has told us what to do, and if we don’t follow that advice, in the LDS culture, that is a sin. And it is so much sin, in the case of m-ing and drinking a glass of wine, that it will keep one from being with their family forever and out of the CK, as well as disqualify one for leadership positions in the church. That must be pretty darn serious in God’s eye to tell folks they will not be saved in the CK.

I reject that notion 100%.

Oh course, many of us here believe that tithing and WofW and such are nothing more than man-made commandments that the church uses to control members behavior, and use as a gauge to see who will be obedient to authority. Are we wrong or do the leaders really believe we are offending god and our fellow man when we drink a cup of coffee or tea. And if the church leaders SERIOUSLY don’t believe they are sins in God’s eye, yet continue to impose and enforce them on the membership in regards to TR/salvation, than they are committing ONE HELL OF SIN. See Doug’s signature line.

:clap: That was very well stated. :clap:

[Anonymous]

Thank you Buttars,

Heber,

Quote:

The frustrating thing for some people is it becomes a personal thing…when some want it fair and equal for everyone…and therefore want the laws institutionalized.

I prefer to keep them personal between God and myself.

Personally, I think this is why the church holds on to things like Tithing and WoW…they are measurable standards that one can use to be one aspect of obedience to a clearly stated law, regardless of whether those laws are tied to any eternal truths.

I agree with the personal between God and myself. I don’t get what you mean by the rest of your statement. Are tithing and WoW sins to YOU? Do you think they are sins to LDS members in general. I guess, I think we agree – yet, I’m not sure if we do or not.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

I agree with the personal between God and myself. I don’t get what you mean by the rest of your statement. Are tithing and WoW sins to YOU? Do you think they are sins to LDS members in general. I guess, I think we agree – yet, I’m not sure if we do or not.

Sorry for not being more clear.

I think not paying tithing and drinking coffee are sins to mormons (like me) who have been taught that temporal church law in this time of the world when a prophet declared them laws, therefore, it is a sin to break those according to church policy.

Do I think my bishop really cares much about me drinking coffee? No, and neither do I, nor do I think the majority of the members of the church really care. It is not the coffee that would keep me out of the CK. It is my heart. Am I willing to obey the law that is given to me, or not? If not, why not? I think the majority of members would not approve of me drinking coffee and being a bishop or holding other callings…but if pressed, ultimately, I think most members are reasonable and would accept that there are worse things in the world I could be doing, and none of us are perfect, and there’s always repentance.

As an example…J.Golden Kimball swore. Most don’t approve of that, some may even think it a sin, but at the end of the day, most people wouldn’t say he would go to hell over it.

Christ will ultimately judge me on these things, and that is all I care about, regardless of what other church members judge me on. I think that is Mormon doctrine. That is what I believe. Until then, bishops are given authority to judge me on temple worthiness or calling worthiness (in this life). I don’t equate those with CK worthiness, and I don’t think they will always be right. The discussion of “what is sin” and “what will keep me out of heaven” are related, but not exactly the same think, IMO.

I think that means we somewhat agree on the emphasis of our positions, but may vary in the details a little between you and I. Does that clarify or muddy my position for ya???

[Anonymous]

DevilsAdvocate wrote:

The real test is what will happen if people don’t follow these rules.

…

On average, some things really are bad for the majority even if some individuals can get away with it without any direct negative consequences.

I agree that many things will have no consequence in this life that we can measurably see. However, Christ will judge on the things that had consequences on our souls or who we are becoming. Therefore, sin isn’t defined by the consequence we see (or don’t see). It is by definition a sin if a law is broken, regardless of whether someone is caught or not or if there are consequences manifest or not.

I think we have to accept this and be comfortable that this is part of an earthly organization called The Church. Even if others in the church judge us to be sinning, or even if a bishop judges us to be unworthy for church callings or status…it still ultimately lies between us and God and that is all that matters. I can still disagree with the church on defining coffee and tea as sin, but still live it because I want to live higher laws that really do have impact on me spiritually.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

I really don’t need someone here trying to tell me that our people DO NOT believe that drinking a beer or skipping their church meetings to watch football on sunday or m-ing (won’t spell it out for Sam’s benefit) etc etc is NOT a sin. The prophet has told us what to do, and if we don’t follow that advice, in the LDS culture, that is a sin.

I totally agree with you, and in good conscience cannot disagree with that statement at all. Those are considered sins, and I can’t tell you otherwise.

cwald wrote:

And it is so much sin, in the case of m-ing and drinking a glass of wine, that it will keep one from being with their family forever and out of the CK

This part I cannot agree with. If you are suggesting the majority of members of the church will all agree that going to a football game on Sunday one time, or drinking a glass of wine every once in a while, and everything else I do is as perfect as Jesus in every way…and that means I don’t go to the CK…nope, I don’t think people will agree with that. They’ll back down and say it wasn’t a good choice, and even though it is a sin, it won’t keep someone out of the CK. That’s my opinion.

cwald wrote:

…, as well as disqualify one for leadership positions in the church.

This part I can’t disagree with you on. It could disqualify one for leadership positions…of which I care little about. Church doctrine is that leadership positions are not important in the Lord’s eyes. The most important callings are to your own soul and your family… you know that whole spiel, right? I believe that and take it literally. This to me shows the difference between the church enforcing a policy (not giving leadership callings because of sin) and what God thinks is significant to us or not.

The story of the Garden of Eden is a good way to help us remember that sometimes transgressing the law can be a good thing! All hail Eve the transgressor! :clap: (BTW, Adam was too stupid to transgress on his own, which was wrong…even though it was not a sin ).

[Anonymous]

There is no sin but there are consequences. The concept of sin arose out of taboos that were created in various cultures to combat bad behavior that was detrimental to the group as a whole. So yes we can do bad things that may have negative consequences but to say it is sin is in error.

Some have said the sin is going against the will of God. If anyone can remotely tell me what the will of God is I would be interested. The point is God never reveals his will to the masses. Sure there are a lot of individuals running around telling you what the will of God is but who is to say they are correct. They may be but it is more likely it is their perception of God’s will that they want enforced. Mormonism says alcohol consumption is a sin, but is it really? Jesus drank wine, is he a sinner? So churches in general apply the sin label to actions generally to control behavior and move the members in a unified direction. This may be a good thing ins some cases but I still say it is a medieval practice to threaten an imagined consequence to an action. Actions have their own consequences without applying a metaphysical consequence.

Then there is the concept of degrees of sin. Big sins little sins, yet the scriptures say that God can not allow sin in the smallest degree. So one bad thought and you are out, at least until you repent. It is all so energy consuming to worry about if you are sinning or not. Best approach is to just do what you know is right and focus on making the world a better place. Follow the Golden Rule. Anything beyond that IMHO toxic to mental health.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

…The prophet has told us what to do, and if we don’t follow that advice, in the LDS culture, that is a sin. And it is so much sin, in the case of m-ing and drinking a glass of wine, that it will keep one from being with their family forever and out of the CK, as well as disqualify one for leadership positions in the church. That must be pretty darn serious in God’s eye to tell folks they will not be saved in the CK.

…Oh course, many of us here believe that tithing and WofW and such are nothing more than man-made commandments that the church uses to control members behavior, and use as a gauge to see who will be obedient to authority. Are we wrong or do the leaders really believe we are offending god and our fellow man when we drink a cup of coffee or tea. And if the church leaders SERIOUSLY don’t believe they are sins in God’s eye, yet continue to impose and enforce them on the membership in regards to TR/salvation, than they are committing ONE HELL OF SIN. See Doug’s signature line.

The real problem is that what Mormons think is a sin is not necessarily what God or most non-Mormons would probably consider to be a sin in many cases. In fact, I have a hard time imagining why anyone including God should really care if someone drinks a cup of coffee. This hurts the Church’s credibility and gives members/investigators another reason to question the reliability of all these LDS prophets. However, I don’t really believe that Church leaders are intentionally trying to jerk people around with all this just because they can and to be honest I think most of them really do think it will offend God to disobey these rules simply because that’s the tradition they have inherited.

My guess is that most Church leaders are just typical TBMs that have worked their way up through the ranks based on seniority. Even if they realize that some of this doesn’t really make sense they probably rationalize that if it was good enough for them to jump through these hoops for the Church then it is good enough for the next generation as well. In other words, they probably think all this is still working more or less as planned and cannot fail based on their own lack of action because God will supposedly never allow it to fail. That’s why I don’t really expect much change any time soon and if you don’t agree with them all you can really do about it is not listen to them.

[Author]

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