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What’s “Fowler’s stage 5”? Is it where you appreciate different perspectives without getting all upset about the onces you don’t prefer?
My purpose of reading & posting on this forum – “StayLDS” is…
I hope to find somewhat of a haven from the seemingly illusional beliefs & behavior I sometimes witness at church & among members.
I hope to be able to relate with others, in exploring gospel doctrine in a more spiritual light.
I hope to develop some friendships (even if it’s just online).
I hope that as I learn & grow, I can help others to.
And… I hope to thank those who make this all possible!
🙂 Featherina wrote:What’s “Fowler’s stage 5”?
Is it where you appreciate different perspectives without getting all upset about the onces you don’t prefer?
My understanding is that Stage 5 happens after you move out of Stage 3(where you believe everthing literally) to Stage 4, where you start questioning everything and maybe even have a huge faith crisis. Stage 4 is ugly, because you are full of tension — trying to reconcile what you see with what everyone says you should believe, and these ideas are in conflict. In Stage 5, you reconcile these Stage 3 and Stage 4 views. You get to a level of peace again where you have your own interpretation of your religion that reconciles the literal Stage 3 thinking with the tension-filled Stage 4 thinking.
Here is an example. I used to believe “the Church is true” wholesale, hook line and sinker because I had a spiritual experience that told me so (Level 3). Then I got exposed to the Church’s business management style and Church orientation toward money that made me question if it REALLY is the divine organization it says it is. Since then, evidence over and over again tells me it’s just like any other temporal organization — sometimes worse than the temporal organizations I’ve worked with, seemingly putting its own needs far ahead of the needs of its individual members. Here I entered Stage 4, which is full of angst and internal conflict. How can a divine organization behave so selfishly toward its committed members?
In Stage 5, you reconcile the Stage 3 thinking with the Stage 4 thinking.
For me, the closest I’ve come to Stage 5 is believing that the Lord led me, or LET ME believe the literal view of our Church because it would result in some net good in my life for the period I held such belief. But at the same time, I also believe he may well lead other people to other Churches, letting all of them believe conflicting things as absolute truths because their alignment with these Churches brings about good in their lives. Therefore, the Church is “true” for some peole and “not true” for other people. God knows more than I do, so he can tell different people that conflicting ideas are true, because he is pragmatic and sees the impact his revealing of “truths” can have on others. In the end, I think people of all religions may well have some deconstruction to go through as they learn the absolute truth.
Therefore, I am free of the Stage 3 literal thinking about the Church being the sole divine organization. I can accept its tendencies toward imperfect, temporal-oriented thinking. I take it with a grain of salt. I do believe God led me to be there, however, for the first 3/4 of my life, and MAYBE for the last 1/4, so I can remain committed. Therefore, the conflict between Stage 3 and Stage 4 is resolved.
Others get into Stage 5 by simply taking things they formerly viewed literally, as symbolic. This detaches them from the necessity of believign temple ordinaces actually DO impact dead people’s salvation, for example. They can participate in temple ordinaces, for example, without believing they are necessarily effective in the eternities. Instead, they view the temple ceremony in a more symbolic way, creating their own meaning from it, that can repudiate the efficacy of temple ordinances while still believing in them as symbolic of loving family or the eternal mercy of God extended to all people….
I think there are a lot of Stage 5 ways of viewing the Church. Yet another is simply believing that “some things are good to beleive” even though they are not true — because of the impact they have on your behavior. For example, it’s good to believe in the goodness of mankind, only because the alternative (losing faith in mankind) leads to unhappiness and cynicism. It’s good to believe in JS as a literal prophet, because it encourages you to live the WoW, which has health benefits. I see this as another way of relieving oneself of literal, Stage 3 thinking, while also relieving you of the tension and disillusionment that comes from being in Stage 4.
Stage 5 people are at peace with their religion, even though they don’t believe it in the traditional way anymore.
It’s good for me to see a kind of Mormonism that isn’t all “correlated”, and standardized. Makes me remember why I was interested in it to begin with. Featherina wrote:What’s “Fowler’s stage 5”?
We have links to podcasts that give an overview of Fowler Stages of Faith, both generally and from an LDS perspective.
StayLDS.com Additional Resources Page:
http://www.staylds.com/?page_id=29 Look for these items on the list:Mormon Stories Podcasts
James Fowler’s Stages of Faith, Mormon Interpretation, Part 1 of 3 — MP3 FILE
James Fowler’s Stages of Faith, Mormon Interpretation, Part 2 of 3 — MP3 FILE
James Fowler’s Stages of Faith, Mormon Interpretation, Part 3 of 3 — MP3 FILE
Mormon Expression Podcasts
Fowler Stages of Faith – Overview, Part 1
Fowler Stages of Faith – Fifth stage and what it means to the LDS Church, Part 2
And if you want it straight from the source. Here’s a link to the book by Dr. Fowler:
http://www.amazon.com/Stages-Faith-Psychology-Development-Meaning/dp/0060628669/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1317040867&sr=8-1 SilentDawning wrote:My understanding is that Stage 5 happens after you move out of Stage 3(where you believe everthing literally) to Stage 4, where you start questioning everything and maybe even have a huge faith crisis. Stage 4 is ugly, because you are full of tension — trying to reconcile what you see with what everyone says you should believe, and these ideas are in conflict. In Stage 5, you reconcile these Stage 3 and Stage 4 views. You get to a level of peace again where you have your own interpretation of your religion that reconciles the literal Stage 3 thinking with the tension-filled Stage 4 thinking.
This is one of my favorite pet topics, having been involved in making some of the podcasts out there on the subject. I think SD describes the most common ways LDS people experience Stage 3 and Stage 4. I like to keep a more broad perspective out there in addition to this in order to help more people understand what they are going through.
I think the most important thing to keep in mind is the Stages of Faith theory describes the mechanics of a person’s faith, not the content of their faith. Also important is to keep in mind that a person is generally not in one single stage, but may shift back and forth between one or two stages depending on a lot of other factors. I think it best describes our way of thinking, not as a label for us as a person: Sometimes I am engaged in Stage 4 style thinking, sometimes I am engaged in Stage 5 style thinking, etc.
Stage 3: “Conventional-Synthetic” faith
Dr. Fowler estimates that around 60% of the adult population in the world operates in this stage of faith. They find what he calls “equilibrium” here and remain. In this stage, a person has a group form of faith. They perceive their beliefs are pretty much like everyone else in their group (making it “conventional”). They feel that they have come to reasonable beliefs and are a part of the group, but in reality it isn’t faith content they arrived at independently. Instead, they have absorbed their group’s belief system as their own (which makes it “synthetic”). They do not tend to be able to step back from their beliefs and examine them as a system, or see them as merely one way of looking at the world.
Mormons tend to be very literal about scriptures and leadership in this stage, but it doesn’t have to be that way. That is an element of faith content, not the mechanics of their faith. It is possible for someone to have a literal belief in scripture stories and also be Stage 4 or Stage 5 in their worldview about that content. A key element of Stage 3 is the creation of a story of stories. The group/person needs to explain why people outside the group don’t believe the same content. In Mormonism, the classic explanation is that people who are non-members are REALLY members of the Church (from the pre-existence) who have forgotten the Plan of Happiness. That is why we need to send missionaries to them, to remind them. Life is a big test. If they don’t accept the Gospel, it’s because Satan and his minions are distracting them with sin and pride.
Stage 4: “Individuative-Reflective” faith
Key features of the transition into this style of faith is pulling away from the authority of the group and the group leaders when determining what is “true.” Power is taking in to the individual (making it “individuative”). Also, the person begins to be able to stand outside their faith content and examine it as a system of thinking (making it “reflective”). They can start thinking about thinking.
The transition into Stage 4 tends to be very disruptive to Mormons, coming from a culture of strong group focus and strong authority of a leadership hierarchy. Stage 4 is heavily involved in deconstructing beliefs, analyzing them, tearing them apart to see how they work. This is all done through a new personal spotlight of truth (as Fowler calls it). Whatever falls inside the spotlight is “true” and whatever falls outside is “false,” with an accompanying urge to reject and cast out those falsehoods. The end result of this process, which can take many years, is a scraping of one’s faith content down to the bedrock, some point of equilibrium. How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? What comes out at the end of this is a faith that is based on the person’s personal quest for truth, and no longer what was merely handed to them by their parents or the group’s authority figures (even though they might arrive at some of the same content, but now it is their’s through personal trial). This stage produces a strong self-certainty and confidence in determining on and individual level what is “true.”
Stage 5: “Conjunctive” faith.
Transition into this stage rarely happens before mid to late-life. It knows the “sacrament of defeat” and the consequences of commitments and acts that can not be revoked. It has grown tired and weary of a colorless world, where all the important flavors and mysteries of life have been flattened and broken through the personal quest to sort out true from false, black from white, real from imaginary.
Stage 5 people choose to develop a “second naivete’,” or an ability to allow their self to be influenced again by imaginative story — combining the ability to be vulnerable to the myths (their group and others), but at the same time realizing they are relative, partial and distorting of the transcendent at the same time. Dr. Fowler called this Ironic Imagination, and it involves becoming comfortable with paradox and with the tension created by contradictions.
The downside of this stage is the possibility of experiencing paralyzing indifference, apathy, complacency and withdrawal. Once you are defeated enough times and stymied by the complexity of reality, realizing perhaps there is no dependable truth to be found, and that too much is simply relative, it lowers your ability to relate with the same vigor and excitement of the previous two stages. You start to feel alien in your group and among others — both free to dive in comfortably as you please to the myths of groups and their meanings, but also not quite connected or attached either.
Featherina, Fowler gets mentioned a lot on here (better get used to it!) – does nothing for me though really, as I don’t feel I fit Fowler’s profile other than in the vaguest senses. Regarding what I was saying about correlation/standardization. When folk see us all wearing the same thing, they think “cult!” – it may reinforce group solidarity, but it also stops people from joining. I saw a video called “The Church in Action 1981-1985”, which was merely about which GAs were coming and going, along with some pretty dry GC talks, and people being sustained via the unified arm raise. All of which, I thought is not exactly encouraging or that inspiring to non-members. I didn’t join to wear a suit, do the same as a large bunch of people, or have my individuality erased, I joined because I find worth in a lot of what the church does, and a lot of its stories are inspiring.
SilentDawning wrote:My understanding is that Stage 5 happens after you move out of Stage 3(where you believe everthing literally) to Stage 4, where you start questioning everything and maybe even have a huge faith crisis. Stage 4 is ugly, because you are full of tension — trying to reconcile what you see with what everyone says you should believe, and these ideas are in conflict. In Stage 5, you reconcile these Stage 3 and Stage 4 views. You get to a level of peace again where you have your own interpretation of your religion that reconciles the literal Stage 3 thinking with the tension-filled Stage 4 thinking.
Here is an example. I used to believe “the Church is true” wholesale, hook line and sinker because I had a spiritual experience that told me so (Level 3). Then I got exposed to the Church’s business management style and Church orientation toward money that made me question if it REALLY is the divine organization it says it is. Since then, evidence over and over again tells me it’s just like any other temporal organization — sometimes worse than the temporal organizations I’ve worked with, seemingly putting its own needs far ahead of the needs of its individual members. Here I entered Stage 4, which is full of angst and internal conflict. How can a divine organization behave so selfishly toward its committed members?
In Stage 5, you reconcile the Stage 3 thinking with the Stage 4 thinking.
For me, the closest I’ve come to Stage 5 is believing that the Lord led me, or LET ME believe the literal view of our Church because it would result in some net good in my life for the period I held such belief. But at the same time, I also believe he may well lead other people to other Churches, letting all of them believe conflicting things as absolute truths because their alignment with these Churches brings about good in their lives. Therefore, the Church is “true” for some peole and “not true” for other people. God knows more than I do, so he can tell different people that conflicting ideas are true, because he is pragmatic and sees the impact his revealing of “truths” can have on others. In the end, I think people of all religions may well have some deconstruction to go through as they learn the absolute truth.
Therefore, I am free of the Stage 3 literal thinking about the Church being the sole divine organization. I can accept its tendencies toward imperfect, temporal-oriented thinking. I take it with a grain of salt. I do believe God led me to be there, however, for the first 3/4 of my life, and MAYBE for the last 1/4, so I can remain committed. Therefore, the conflict between Stage 3 and Stage 4 is resolved.
Others get into Stage 5 by simply taking things they formerly viewed literally, as symbolic. This detaches them from the necessity of believign temple ordinaces actually DO impact dead people’s salvation, for example. They can participate in temple ordinaces, for example, without believing they are necessarily effective in the eternities. Instead, they view the temple ceremony in a more symbolic way, creating their own meaning from it, that can repudiate the efficacy of temple ordinances while still believing in them as symbolic of loving family or the eternal mercy of God extended to all people….
I think there are a lot of Stage 5 ways of viewing the Church. Yet another is simply believing that “some things are good to beleive” even though they are not true — because of the impact they have on your behavior. For example, it’s good to believe in the goodness of mankind, only because the alternative (losing faith in mankind) leads to unhappiness and cynicism. It’s good to believe in JS as a literal prophet, because it encourages you to live the WoW, which has health benefits. I see this as another way of relieving oneself of literal, Stage 3 thinking, while also relieving you of the tension and disillusionment that comes from being in Stage 4.
Stage 5 people are at peace with their religion, even though they don’t believe it in the traditional way anymore.
Thanks for explaining this so well, SilentDawning.I like how you mentioned some things are good to believe even if they aren’t true.
There’s a certain illogic in enjoying life… Like when I laugh, sing, dance etc… I don’t think about what’s true, but what’s fun to believe.
🙂 Brian Johnston wrote:…I think the most important thing to keep in mind is the Stages of Faith theory describes the mechanics of a person’s faith, not the content of their faith. Also important is to keep in mind that a person is generally not in one single stage, but may shift back and forth between one or two stages depending on a lot of other factors. I think it best describes our way of thinking, not as a label for us as a person: Sometimes I am engaged in Stage 4 style thinking, sometimes I am engaged in Stage 5 style thinking, etc.
…Stage 5: “Conjunctive” faith.
Transition into this stage rarely happens before mid to late-life. It knows the “sacrament of defeat” and the consequences of commitments and acts that can not be revoked. It has grown tired and weary of a colorless world, where all the important flavors and mysteries of life have been flattened and broken through the personal quest to sort out true from false, black from white, real from imaginary.
Stage 5 people choose to develop a “second naivete’,” or an ability to allow their self to be influenced again by imaginative story — combining the ability to be vulnerable to the myths (their group and others), but at the same time realizing they are relative, partial and distorting of the transcendent at the same time. Dr. Fowler called this Ironic Imagination, and it involves becoming comfortable with paradox and with the tension created by contradictions.
The downside of this stage is the possibility of experiencing paralyzing indifference, apathy, complacency and withdrawal. Once you are defeated enough times and stymied by the complexity of reality, realizing perhaps there is no dependable truth to be found, and that too much is simply relative, it lowers your ability to relate with the same vigor and excitement of the previous two stages. You start to feel alien in your group and among others — both free to dive in comfortably as you please to the myths of groups and their meanings, but also not quite connected or attached either.
I really like how you put this, Brian.Every now & then, I get so upset about fear, shame & self-righteousness associated with some religious perspectives.
But I’m starting to respect that nobody’s perfect & we’re all works in progress.
For a while, I was really sad when I realized everything is illusion. Or rather, I realized my reason for being motivated before was mostly illusional… hoping to get internal fulfillment through external means. Then I realized we only see a tiny part of a big picture & most of the time, most of us are just fooling ourselves.
😆 It’s funny in a way, but it’s also sad. My hardest issue was prayer. I missed feeling uplifted through prayer, yet I felt silly praying when I knew the God I used to believe in couldn’t be real. Now, I realize believing in a “Heavenly Father & Mother” may not be exactly true, but it’s the closest thing I can relate to.It almost seems like a depression – but different. Depression before, was more based on a twisted, depressing view of my view of my worth. This time, it was about trying to find meaning while understanding I only see a part of the picture… & about learning to change a life-time habit of searching for
self-esteem externally. My children are my gifts in so many ways… they help me keep that naive belief & excitement, just for fun.
Sometimes I get as much spirituality or more, from make-believing with them, as I do in make-believing with others at church.
🙂 SamBee wrote:Featherina, Fowler gets mentioned a lot on here (better get used to it!) – does nothing for me though really, as I don’t feel I fit Fowler’s profile other than in the vaguest senses.
Regarding what I was saying about correlation/standardization. When folk see us all wearing the same thing, they think “cult!” – it may reinforce group solidarity, but it also stops people from joining. I saw a video called “The Church in Action 1981-1985”, which was merely about which GAs were coming and going, along with some pretty dry GC talks, and people being sustained via the unified arm raise. All of which, I thought is not exactly encouraging or that inspiring to non-members. I didn’t join to wear a suit, do the same as a large bunch of people, or have my individuality erased, I joined because I find worth in a lot of what the church does, and a lot of its stories are inspiring.
I can relate, Sam. I struggle with being the “black sheep” in my family & in wards.I just don’t want to give in too much & lose my individuality. I don’t think I rebel just to rebel, but I can’t make myself go along with things I don’t feel right about.
I can go along with church – ordinances – & appreciate the symbolic meaning. But I have a hard time gossiping along with others, or talking about things I don’t believe in. So, sometimes I miss connecting with people. It’s just superficial in some ways & I try to not get into specific religious doctrines – which can be tough when visiting teaching etc.
I like learning from others’ experience and thinking. I hope this site is always a place I can come to to challenge my ideas, see new perspectives, and remain a member of the church while broadening my faith. I hope my ideas can also help other, if not…I still find benefit in putting my thoughts down to words and crystallize them for myself. That’s what StayLDS is for me. Blast from the past. I just felt like bumping this thread. I guess, for me, StayLDS is much like some of the Ex-Mo groups that I have been involved with. In those groups, we don’t spend a ton of time debating topics or shaming leaders but instead we trade stories and seek support. We all have a story to tell, all of them are sacred, unique and important. We are all Brother and Sisters here and even in this semi anonymous setting, I feel connections to many. I have been through a lot in this church. I’ve been in, out, in, out and now dipping my feet in once again. This time, I am participating as a StayLDS/”Make Do” kind of thought pattern. This church isn’t perfect, the people are really not perfect (far, far from it).. but that doesn’t mean it can’t be helpful. I’m discovering how to exist in the church in a way that works for my mental health and family needs. I pretty much want to be like Jesus and be a congregation of 1. I won’t be as good as Jesus, but I can be good enough.
StayLDS is a community, even if it is loose. I appreciate that it is still here. I look forward to being a bigger contributor in the future!
By trade, I used to be an accountant for various manufacturing companies. I’m retired now. One of my responsibilities was to reconcile and report the results of the annual physical inventory for 12+ factories throughout the US. One year, as I was completing my reconciliation, there was a substantial write off. I reviewed my work papers & could not see where the error was. Assuming there was an error. If we would of booked the write off, it
would of gotten the attention of Sr VP’s, Internal & External auditors, Board of Directors & a special note in the annual report for the company.
As a last result, I went to my boss (not an accountant) & said, can we talk through what I’ve done to date on the annual inventory. It wasn’t 15
minutes into the details when I realize there was one item I forgot to include. As a result the adjustment was minimal and everyone was
reasonably happy. Especially me. (I don’t like attention. Even when it’s good.)
To me, that’s what StayLDS.com is. It’s a place where I can anonymously talk through a problem or idea & get feedback. I’m not always right & you
as a group of people I trust, can tell me when I’m wrong. Or you can reinforce what I’m thinking, feeling or believe. Today when I go to church or
through my neighborhood, I come in contact with a number of people I have grown to know & trust. We can talk about anything & know that it
will stay confidential.
At this stage in my life, I know that I do not have all the answers & never will. I thank God everyday for my friends & family who help me get through this life on a daily basis. (and I thank this site too. I wish we could see each other face to face.) This will have to do for now.
Thank you for this wonderful analogy Minyan Man. I feel the same! I’m new. So far this site has provided a place to work through my feelings to see if I’m willing be a member again. The other side of that is to see if the Church will allow me to be here? Still have some very harsh feelings about some issues…
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