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I’m speaking of the “DAMU” and the “Mormon Internet”. FenixDown wrote:I’m a proud Jack-Mormon I used to hate that title but now I embrace it.
i see things quite differently. i choose to stay, and choose the middle way. those who want to leave but are forced to stay are not on the middle way, but rather, at a way-station on their way out: a holding cell.the middle way is a balanced view: accepting and embracing truth while setting aside nonworking nontruths. the middle way rejects black and white thinking.
a jackmormon is a nonobservant mormon. means something else: means you remain a mormon while not observing its conduct rules.
just my take on it.
The “Mormon internet” is far too broad a term for me to try to characterize in generalized terms. Sites on the internet that are Mormon-theme-focused are all over the map, in pretty much all ways. I do agree that much of the DAMU comes across as disingenuous, but, generally speaking, when dealing with religious-focused sites within an umbrella categorization, “dishonest” or “disingenuous” can be a very, very subjective term. The DAMU isn’t my cup of tea at all, but I just don’t like sweeping generalizations that address highly disparate, complex issues and communities. As much as I don’t like lables, “Jack Mormon” has always meant, traditionally, baptized but non-attending and intentionally living directly in opposition to some core practice – not disagreeing with some core doctrine. I am supportive of people calling themselves whatever makes the most sense to them individually, so if someone who doesn’t follow the commonly accepted view of the Word of Wisdom, Law of Chastity, etc. and doesn’t attend wants to call themselves a Jack Mormon, I have no problem with that.
However, as wayfarer says, it’s not some kind of “middle way”. It’s an individual way that is outside the stream of the institutional LDS Church.
Well I ask Ray respectfully what do you think the middle way means to other people? Meaning a person who is struggling with LDS faith issues and looking for answers. What does the middle way mean to you? Yes I am a Jack-Mormon, non-observant in many ways, and there are some things within the history and doctrine I don’t believe. I don’t believe in jumping to extremes however. I’m simply pointing out that a middle road to some one who doesn’t like white shirts, yet likes a little Starbucks when they write about their disdain of polygamy, is far different than a non-practicing Mormon athiest who wants nothing to do with Mormonism while running a blog or forum calling for change and welcoming the lost and questioning. No I’m noy saying StayLDS.com or John Dehlin, which is what I think people are assuming.
I’m not sure what the middle way means anymore it seems to be just the other side of the same coin sometimes. It’s nothing personal against anyone it’s just an observation.
Its an interesting discussion, because it is not concrete, but more like trying to nail jello to the wall. The moment you commit to a position and put a nail in the wall on what “Middle Way” means, you see it eludes the nail. Perhaps the Middle Way is a mindset…how you think about things, which drives behaviors that can vary from person to person so much that SD is right…there really is no “Middle Way”. There are just ways that we behave with a mindset of avoiding extremes which produce behaviors that don’t feel right to us.
Therefore, a person can be a “Jack Mormon” and not attend church at all, because of Middle Way thinking. And another person can be fully active and a TR holder, holding callings like High Councilor or RS President, and think things through with Middle Way philosophies, completely sincere in their worship and service. But I think those that are faking it, or in the holding cell as wayfarer called it, have a hard time thinking anyone else can be sincere in knowing the conundrums and still be honestly in the church, because that is hard for them to see from their perspective. But I have heard enough of John Dehlin’s podcasts to believe many people actually do stay in the church, and are intellectually honest about it. It is just a different mindset that requires peace in doing so.
I don’t think the Middle Way is a group, or a creed, or a doctrine or a behavior. In fact, it sounds like Mike is an example of Middle Way thinking while changing behaviors along the path.
Mike wrote:Through the phases of my life, I’ve been very active, completely inactive & now I’m trying to come back. Throughit all, I know God knows me and accepts me for who Iam. He understands that this is a path I needed to take & encourages (& inspires) me all along the way. I don’t think I would change a thing. The important thing is to learn our “lesson” along the way.
My interpretation of Mike’s comments make me think he can live a Middle Way, but only he knows his thoughts and intentions.
But I don’t expect my nail in the wall is holding up the jello. I like “Middle Way” philosophy, but am not caught up in defining it as “A Way”. Understanding it can be a dangerous word for some in the church who equate it with negative things…I would not benefit from using it out loud while talking to them.
My husband and I have been trying lately to visit our local lds ward again. We are friendly, out going humanatarians who like helping and being involved. We really like alot of the lds teachings and things about the lds church, but cannot accept or believe in all of it anymore. An organization like the lds church can have both true and false things it it and that is difficult for most members to believe. We have all heard the saying, “Don’t throw out the baby with the bath water.” We do not want to loose all the good we found in the church. We love Jesus Christ, we believe in the lds trinity, we like the idea of man’s potential to be joint heirs with Christ. Eternal intelligences who God did not create, who chose to follow God and have him clothe our intelligence with a spirit body, go through a pre-existence spirit school, earth life, a Savior and law of eternal progression all sound reasonable to us. Yet, we don’t want the dirty bath water that seems to go with it. The problem we are having in coming back to church is that the leaders and members in this ward don’t know how to act or feel around members like us. To them, there is a line of progression and you cannot be just a half way Mormon. If you don’t pay tithing, believe in the priesthood, and go to the temple, then something is seriously wrong with you. When we try to participate and ask questions in class that show we have problems with some of the church history, or teachings, we are looked upon as trouble makers. We are seen as members who might contaminate the flock and so it feels awkward. We are beginning to feel like you can’t be middle way in the lds church.
It depends on how you use and mean the term. Confucius’ middle way is an individual way, as wayfarer describes regularly. “The middle way” in the context of the Mormon blogosphere is different. If my earlier comment was too restrictive, I apologize.
I just posted a new comment on this subject ( http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=3291&p=41466#p41466 I appreciate everyone’s thoughts on this subject. Is there truly a middle way in the church? By that I mean all the posts about a middle way or individual way are just that – finding meaning on your own terms. I can accept that you can find a way to re-align yourself with mormonism but it seems that a re-alignment with the church is another story. There is no middle way in the church. You can’t talk about middle way approaches in SS or EQ meetings. Reactions to this kind approach is not going to get you very far in most LDS congregations. The demands that the church places on conformity are just too great.
I don’t see the church changing its approach in my lifetime. Brian, you mentioned that the tides in the church are changing on binary thinking… but are they really?
I don’t know really if there is a middle of the way within the church. Individually, yes.
I will repeat, elcid, there CAN’T be “ AMiddle Way” in the Church – some established alternate path on which lots of members can walk completely separated from others. We can’t be looking for a different “One True Path”. That’s just a different manifestation (“If this one isn’t perfect for everyone, there has to be another one that is.”) of the exact same perspective that we can’t accept (“This is perfect for everyone, so there can’t be any other that is right for asomeone else”.) It has to be more like individual lines (that don’t have to be straight / linear) on the same highway – with the desired end being the common factor, even if that desired end is envisioned / described / interpreted differently.
ElCid wrote:I don’t see the church changing its approach in my lifetime. Brian, you mentioned that the tides in the church are changing on binary thinking… but are they really?
I find that from the pulpit just about everyone talks in extremely binary language. But when you actually talk to members individually and ask them what they think about other churches, or priesthood authority, they suddenly have a very different opinion. I don’t see the World Wide Church making any big changes any time soon. But I did at least appreciate Elder Christofferson’s comment in the last General Conference:
“… it should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.” “
bridget_night wrote:When we try to participate and ask questions in class that show we have problems with some of the church history, or teachings, we are looked upon as trouble makers. We are seen as members who might contaminate the flock and so it feels awkward. We are beginning to feel like you can’t be middle way in the lds church.
I obviously feel that there is a middle way in the church, but it isn’t, as Ray has said, “AMiddle Way”, nor is it the middle way of the blogosphere or the DAMU. The middle way is the way of integrity, of knowing what you believe, and then finding middle ground between your beliefs and those with whom you worship. Let me give you an example. Let’s say you have devout, orthodox Jewish neighbors. They ask you to share the sedir with them one year. Do you go there and point out the lack of historical validity of their ritual? Do you go there and preach christianity to them? If you ask them over for Christmas dinner, do you serve them ham and cheese? Some things just aren’t done.
I have gone to the Mass many times in the Catholic church. When I was really dabbling in other religions, I participated in the mass, fully, only to realize it was a little insulting to them to partake of their communion if I haven’t committed to catholicism. I thought that their rules didn’t apply to me, because I was superior to them, and I could flaunt their rules. Recently I stayed in Ireland with a very devout catholic, who runs the choir at his parrish — something we oddly share in common, although I no longer do so. When I discussed the communion, he was mortified when I said that I have taken communion, then he taught me how to participate without partaking, to go up to the priest and when it is my turn, cross my arms across my chest like an X, and the priest, instead of giving communion, blessed me. It was a very spiritual experience. By participating in the mass, according to their rules, and detached from the validity of their rules, I found benefit.
Now returning to the LDS church after all my wayfaring, I am detached from the validity of the LDS rules. yet, out of the same respect I have for any church, I find it best to find middle ground — that which I can share with my fellow saints, without going into controversy. I have known many non-members, ex-ed members, and gray-zoners who have supported their true believing families in the church, who attend for critical events of their children, but who do not believe, nor are they opposed. Because the church is not in their emotional scope, they don’t worry about the fiction taught as fact — it’s just in the woodwork.
Why can’t we do the same?
It’s because we’re too emotionally attached: The church isn’t what we thought it was, and feeling betrayed, we get irritated at the insanity. Sure. I understand. But this is where confucius’ middle way comes in, as in the “doctrine of the mean”: he says that the emotional attachments we create tie us to an unbalanced existence, that neither is healthy, nor is it capable of expressing real emotion. Paradoxically, when we detach from our former emotions about the church as we thought it was, we come to the middle, the center, the ‘mean’ — this character in chinese: 中. If you can read the character, you’d see a vertical line intersecting the middle of a box. That’s the symbol of the center. It’s balanced. It’s neither extreme. Once we have found our center: our ability to know the truth, and reject falsehoods, and recognize that everyone is on their own Way, we can express and feel genuine emotion.
That’s the great paradox: we need to detach from the emotions of losing the One True Church, in order to appreciate and find the joy in the truth
inthe church. Way, that was awesome. You may be one of the most polished advocates for the middle way on DAMU. Please keep posting. Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2
We will be disappointed if we approach a religious community and wait for them to all be just like us. We will be disappointed if we approach a religious community and wait for them to give us permission to be who we are.
We will be disappointed if we give others the gift of our conflict and anger, and expect them to reflect back peace and love in return.
Don’t wait for permission to be happy and do what is right. Be the person you want others to be. That which ye sow, so shall ye reap. Be the better person. Love them first. The person with the greater wisdom has the greater responsibility. How does God commune with us, who were made but a little lower than the angels, yet crowned with glory and honor?
Thank you for all the good advice. Very helpful to me. Brian Johnston wrote:We will be disappointed if we approach a religious community and wait for them to all be just like us.
We will be disappointed if we approach a religious community and wait for them to give us permission to be who we are.
We will be disappointed if we give others the gift of our conflict and anger, and expect them to reflect back peace and love in return.
Don’t wait for permission to be happy and do what is right. Be the person you want others to be. That which ye sow, so shall ye reap. Be the better person. Love them first. The person with the greater wisdom has the greater responsibility. How does God commune with us, who were made but a little lower than the angels, yet crowned with glory and honor?
Brian, you bring tears to my eyes. I’ll let you figure out what THAT means…
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