What is the point of temple work, actually?

[Anonymous]

This has been on my mind a lot as we’re about to have a new temple dedicated here. Even in my truly TBM days, I didn’t *love* going to the temple, but I wanted to feel like a good LDS wife so I did it. I confess that I have 0% interest in geneaology, and so I have never done one of my own family names. So I’ve only done vicarious ordinances for strangers.

But I’ve been thinking. A complete set of proxy ordinances – baptism, confirmation, initiatory, endowment, sealing – if you did it all back-to-back, that woud take what, probably 2.5 hours? I’m not counting the time spent traveling to and from the temple, or the time put in by the temple workers – it’s probably 2.5 hours just for the patron doing the work. So, 2.5 hours to do the work so that one person who is dead can enter into the Celestial Kingdom.

Of course, not everyone who hears the gospel in the spirit world will accept it. Let’s say that for every 200 dead people who hear the gospel, 1 will accept it. (0.5% is a hugely generous estimate. There are 7 billion people on planet Earth, and only 15 million of them are LDS.) This means that, on average, 500 man-hours (again, not counting travel or temple workers or vacuuming out the session rooms or anything) are put in for every 1 person who gets to enter the Celestial Kingdom. Still, not so bad when you consider that ‘the worth of souls is great in the sight of God.’ 500 man-hours, spread out over Saturdays and weeknight evenings, in exchange for someone’s immortal soul feels like a fair exchange rate.

Buuuuuuuut… we freely admit that our record-keeping is imperfect. People will be baptized with the wrong names or dates. Millions of people lived and died on the earth and there are no written records of them today. Some dead people will never have their work done, some will have it multiple times. Women who had more than one husband? We say just seal ’em all and let God sort it out. I like that answer when it comes to questions like ‘what about stillborn children’ or ‘what about someone who lived in Norway in 850 A.D. and the church burned down and all the records of their life were destroyed.’ It seems fair. God knows, and He will sort it out after the Second Coming.

But doesn’t that cast those 500 hours per soul into perspective? Why put all this time into baptizing/confirming/endowing/sealing the dead when we know that statistically, most of them probably won’t accept it? Why not wait until everyone has been resurrected, and just ASK them? And then there’s the money. It costs a lot to build and maintain temples. It costs 10% of your gross income until you die in order to be admitted into the temple to do this work for the dead. Obviously the Church gives a lot of money in humanitarian aid, but our organizational focus is on temple work. (I can count on one hand the number of service projects I’ve been involved with as an adult member of the Church. Compare that with the number of talks, lessons, and Ensign articles exhorting us to go to the temple.) I think it’s admirable that we are so concerned about doing the work for the dead, but… not to be crass, but they ain’t getting any deader. What if we dedicated that kind of energy to assisting the living? Literacy, clean drinking water, preventing childhood disease… It seems like we could make a real difference in the world.

Believe it or not, this cognitive dissonance isn’t why I’ve sworn off temple attendance for the time being. It’s actually the gender issues. But realizing we are putting in hundreds of hours into temple work, maybe unnecessarily, makes it a lot easier for me to stay away.

[Anonymous]

I think the things you have pointed out really underscore how much the church values temples and performing the ordinances for people that have passed away. Why go to all the trouble and expense unless you truly felt like it was all worth it?

Joni wrote:

But doesn’t that cast those 500 hours per soul into perspective? Why put all this time into baptizing/confirming/endowing/sealing the dead when we know that statistically, most of them probably won’t accept it?

Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of god… It’s one of those things where some might feel like it’s all worth it even if it only made a difference to one person (especially if we were that one person).

Joni wrote:

Why not wait until everyone has been resurrected, and just ASK them?

I’ve had this thought. Why not wait until everyone has been resurrected and let them receive the ordinances for themselves, get that firsthand experience.

There’s a manual called Preparing to Enter the Holy Temple. Rather than quote half the manual I’ll quote a few lines that sum up one of the themes it covers more extensively:

Quote:

Return again and again and again. Return to learn.

Doing work for the dead is only one small aspect of the temple, it can be a place of learning and meditation. Unfortunately I feel like the temple experience is set up to funnel people down that familiar path where the expectation is to do an ordinance. I’d love there to be quiet places in the temple to meditate, perhaps a place like the celestial room where people can take a quick break from the world without having to set aside 2 or 3 hours of doing an ordinance to trade for 2 or 3 minutes in the celestial room. I’m exaggerating, plus I’m fairly certain people can dress out and go directly to the celestial room if they so chose. My long rant is my way of saying I wish the temples were set up to allow people to explore the type of experience they’d like to have rather than following along an ordinance assembly line.

The larger temples are a little easier to explore, the smaller ones are more utilitarian.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of god… It’s one of those things where some might feel like it’s all worth it even if it only made a difference to one person (especially if we were that one person).

I really don’t grudge that one soul his or her 500 hours. It’s in line with what the Savior told us about leaving the flock and going after the one lost sheep.

But it does get thorny when you consider the opportunity cost – that’s 500 hours NOT being spent doing something else, something that could have an immediate benefit for people who AREN’T dead. I’ve got kids at home; if I want to spend time in the temple, I’ve got to get a sitter. And even when my husband and I go to the temple together, we’re not really together – we’re on opposite sides of the endowment room. We might get to hold hands during the prayer circle, but of course my face has to be covered with a veil so he won’t be distracted by my beauty

Quote:

There’s a manual called Preparing to Enter the Holy Temple. Rather than quote half the manual I’ll quote a few lines that sum up one of the themes it covers more extensively:

Return again and again and again. Return to learn.

Doing work for the dead is only one small aspect of the temple, it can be a place of learning and meditation.

As a place of learning, the temple definitely has some drawbacks. Mainly, I think, the problem that you get the same lesson every time you go, and it’s presented in a format that isn’t super engaging. I’m not an educator, but I think showing people the same 2-hour video/lecture every Saturday for a year wouldn’t teach them a whole lot. (I know it’s not an effective teaching method when I look around the ordinance room and half the patrons are alseep.) I learn better through participation and by asking questions – can you imagine if there was a Q&A session with the temple president every week? 😮

Things I want to learn about include how to be equal partners with my husband; what my Heavenly Mother is like (and am I supposed to become like Her); how to raise my children; more about the Savior’s earthly ministry. The temple endowment doesn’t really touch on any of these.

Quote:

Unfortunately I feel like the temple experience is set up to funnel people down that familiar path where the expectation is to do an ordinance. I’d love there to be quiet places in the temple to meditate, perhaps a place like the celestial room where people can take a quick break from the world without having to set aside 2 or 3 hours of doing an ordinance to trade for 2 or 3 minutes in the celestial room. I’m exaggerating, plus I’m fairly certain people can dress out and go directly to the celestial room if they so chose. My long rant is my way of saying I wish the temples were set up to allow people to explore the type of experience they’d like to have rather than following along an ordinance assembly line.

The larger temples are a little easier to explore, the smaller ones are more utilitarian.

You are so right. There was a post on ZD recently about the lack of contemplative spaces in the Mormon church and it had honestly not occurred to me before that they are absolutely right. You can go straight from the locker room to the celestial room – at least I think you can – but that option’s not widely advertised; you can’t stay there all day; and that’s really only an option if you have a temple nearby anyway. Our new temple is beautiful, and it’s less than 20 minutes from my house, but it still isn’t where I would go to meditate. Most of us do our deep thinking in the shower, anyway. 😆

[Anonymous]

I can see it now. Temple/Zen spa!!!

Joni wrote:

But doesn’t that cast those 500 hours per soul into perspective? Why put all this time into baptizing/confirming/endowing/sealing the dead when we know that statistically, most of them probably won’t accept it?

I remember reading the scriptures (I believe in Malachi) and thinking that if all the plan of salvation produced just one exalted soul then it would be worth it. What is the value of a God? I suppose that line of thinking makes one more comfortable with the majority of humanity not “making it.”

I remember GBH saying that temples are our monuments to our belief in eternal souls. I like the idea of monuments. How efficient are they? Usually not very and yet… they serve a useful purpose nonetheless.

Part of me thinks that temple ordinances where designed to separate us and make us more exclusive compared to other Christians. “Everyone has a mode of baptism but no others even pretend to have this!”

Joni wrote:

I like that answer when it comes to questions like ‘what about stillborn children’ or ‘what about someone who lived in Norway in 850 A.D. and the church burned down and all the records of their life were destroyed.’ It seems fair. God knows, and He will sort it out after the Second Coming.

After our daughter was stillborn it was so hard for me to let go of knowing what my place was in the eternities. I had grown up with a church sponsored checklist to delineate who gets what and who goes where in heaven. When I found out that the church doesn’t know what happens to stillborns it made me question my assumptions of how we know anything about anybody in the afterlife.

[Anonymous]

I think another problem with the temple is that it’s far from being a universal experience. Some people love it. Some tolerate it. Some fall asleep. Some are troubled by aspects of temple practice. But that’s not really something we talk about (it wasn’t until FMH did their series that I realized I wasn’t alone). We only ever talk about the temple in positive terms, and we don’t really talk specifics. And nobody ever gets up in General Conference and says “go to the temple, OR find a place where you can meditate, such as the outdoors, OR do service for the less fortunate, OR get some much needed rest. Whatever feels right to you.” It shouldn’t be one size fits all, but we treat it like it is.

[Anonymous]

I agree with you there Joni,

A certain type of person thrives in the church and generally becomes the leaders. Their life experience and church doctrine tend to mislead them into thinking that everyone could be just as happy as they are…if only they do the same things.

[Anonymous]

Some really believe literally that the temple ordinances will be the key events that link the family together for eternity. So, finding who our family members are and wanting to be linked to them makes sense.

Here is my situation…temple married 23 years, 4 kids, civil divorce, remarried civilly.

Technically, I’m sealed to my first wife, and my second wife is only married to me for this lifetime.

To be sealed to my new wife, I can be sealed to her also and have 2 eternal spouses. But she is still sealed to her first husband, even though she divorced him.

Her first husband is sealed to a new wife, so technically, he is sealed to 2 woman right now.

So…my wife has to first get the temple sealing canceled from her first husband, who didn’t need that from her. The 1st presidency has to approve.

Then, we wait a year.

Then, I can take her to the temple to be sealed to me. But I will first want to cancel my first sealing.

😯 :wtf: :crazy:

…ummm…really? This all makes sense somehow?

If all this administrative stuff didn’t happen, then God is bound to laws, and basically, people who don’t like each other are stuck being sealed together, and great wonderful loving people who didn’t get temple sealed would basically just have to be separated in the eternities.

Because Mormon temples hold that power to seal enemies forever, and there is no other way loving couples can stay together.

UNLESS….

Temple work is allowed to take care of all the messes like this in the next life. We get proxy work. So that makes it all going to be OK.

But…seriously…still the 1st Presidency has to approve the cancelations and sealings. Otherwise, God is beholden to the laws of eternity. :eh: How about…it will all work out in the next life…so…it will all work out ….I take it as that and that we really don’t know much about the next life and how it works. It just will work out. So…no fear, for those who don’t go to the temple, don’t worry. For those that do, don’t worry. God is just. Temples are symbolic.

Ya know…for me…the ideals taught about ordinance work and eternal blessings is a wonderful thing to have hope for. Sealing families is great. Proxy work so everyone gets a chance is beautiful.

But once you get into the details and specific situations…it breaks down and becomes quite silly quite fast for me.

So…I keep it at a level high enough it has value…and let go of the specific silly stuff that doesn’t make sense. In short…I don’t take it literal. But I was in tears in the temple as my daughter was sealed to a good mormon man. They have a beautiful promises together and hope for their eternal relationship. That’s a good foundation for a healthy relationship. (I stop there).

I don’t fret the rest. I will have to jump through hoops to get the rest taken care of and take my sweet wife to the temple someday despite silly administrative stuff that I don’t think God cares about at all. Not out of fear we will be separated in the next life, not out of obedience to prove something to people, but simply because I like the idea we both will commit to love eachother forever. Whatever that means.

I like being in places where I feel peace. The temple is that for me. I let go of thinking some literal bond is put in place in the temples.

[Anonymous]

Hmmm, based on what I’ve always been taught, I would expect the number of people to accept their temple work as very high. I think the population of Mormons isn’t a good judge since the message is harder to get to people with limited missionaries and so many distractions and other beliefs. I’ve always been taught that the majority of people will be in the celestial kingdom, with the other kingdoms like an inverted pyramid. I think a church president used to teach this.

Anyway, I liked these statements:

nibbler wrote:

Joni wrote:

Why not wait until everyone has been resurrected, and just ASK them?

I’ve had this thought. Why not wait until everyone has been resurrected and let them receive the ordinances for themselves, get that firsthand experience.

Even if temple ordinances are truly required for exaltation (I have issue with that even), why do they have to be done by proxy? Can’t there be a spirit endowment session? Don’t dead spirits see and hear? I guess we don’t know, but that’s what I always thought. To me, the temple is a waste of my time, I don’t get anything (positive) out of it, and I don’t like it or really believe it’s necessary. If it helps someone else, then I don’t care if they go all the time. It’s not a waste for someone to find peace or feel like their life is worthwhile.

[Anonymous]

It’s all symbolic, and, overall, the symbolism is beautiful. Individual circumstances get wonky in a hurry, but the concept is wonderful.

Seriously, even Boyd K. Packer said it’s all symbolic – so there is no need to take it literally. Remove the literal view, and the idea of everyone being sealed to everyone and returning to God in glory and universal love is cool.

[Anonymous]

Ray, I can comprehend how some can find beauty in the temple and the rituals there. For me I think I am more of a “get ‘er done” kind of a guy. I find more fulfillment in fixing an elderly widow’s broken screen or mowing someone’s lawn. I just don’t get any fulfillment on any level (other than it used to reduce my guilt over not attending enough – but I have gotten past that). Saying this I don’t want to take anything away from those that find something valuable in the temple. I am glad they enjoy it and find fulfillment. I just wish some could go a bit easier on those that it doesn’t resonate or even those that find it hard or hurtful

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Anonymous]

Well there had to be a satisfying way for repeat business. Once you have the initiatory and endowment done for yourself, the only other reason you would go back to the temple is for marriage or being nominated for the second anointing.

Temples would be very under used without the idea of proxy work. As inefficient as it is for processing names, it generally serves as a reinforcement of commitment for the members going through each session. They are the ones who have to physically say yes to everything in the ritual, and thereby they feel obligated to obedience by the proceedings. Many then feel rewarded or find meaning in their own way when they get to dwell in the celestial room for a few minutes.

[Anonymous]

Ray has said in other threads that he enjoys the service aspect of the temple (correct me if I’m wrong, Ray). I can see how people enjoy that aspect. Sometimes it can be hard to find ways to give service, and the temple offers a way to offer service to the dead, and even for your own ancestors. So, I understand the appeal to that. I’m one of those who has never been able to find peace or joy in the temple, but I can definitely understand how it can be a peaceful and meaningful place for others. I’d prefer to spend time serving people in a more temporal sense, like working in a soup kitchen or delivering food to elderly folks or something like that, and I wish the church offered more opportunities for this kind of service, outside of a calling.

[Anonymous]

I have thought about this a bit myself, Joni. For the orthodox believer taking out one’s own endowment and being sealed to your spouse/family are necessary for salvation/exaltation. Likewise, doing the proxy work for the dead allows other family members to also gain salvation/exaltation. From that standpoint the LDS church stands out – Catholicism, for example, teaches that if you die without baptism (even as an infant) you will never go to heaven (simplified for the sake of discussion).

I’m one of those who isn’t even sure baptism is even necessary. I have settled on it being purely symbolic. Having done so I have also come to the recognition that the temple is symbolic as well. I see it as nothing more. I don’t get much out of the temple, but it is a peaceful place where outside cares can be left outside and I do appreciate that. I like symbolism and I can think about what things might mean while not listening to other parts of the ceremonies. I don’t believe proxy temple work accomplishes anything for the deceased person. For those that do get something out of the temple rites, though, doing the work for others gives them the opportunity to be reminded of the covenants or symbolism involved and to experience that peace that is often so hard to find. If people only went once to the temple they would likely not remember much of it – there’s lots to take in. From a practical point of view, doing temple work for the dead is more about the proxies than the dead people.

[Anonymous]

Joni wrote:

Things I want to learn about include how to be equal partners with my husband; what my Heavenly Mother is like (and am I supposed to become like Her); how to raise my children; more about the Savior’s earthly ministry. The temple endowment doesn’t really touch on any of these.

One thing I have come to understand in my post-FC life is that spirituality is not about information or even belief. With that in mind, the Temple is a perfectly fine element of spirituality. It doesn’t exactly work for me, but I have no problem if it works for others. I have my own spiritual carabiners that work for me. I don’t expect them to stay the same during the long arch of my life, nor to I expect that mine are the same as those of others.

If the Temple doesn’t work for you, then don’t go. But recognize that there are a lot of people who love going to the Temple and who find peace there.

[Anonymous]

I love the temple, and I hate the temple. Neither word is too strong.

But if the question is, What’s the point?, I think one answer is dignity for every human being. The (unattainable) goal is for everyone to be known by name and to say it aloud in God’s “presence.”

[Author]

Posts