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I have been attempting to find some value in the church as I live the rest of my life having to deal with it. But frankly beyond belonging to a community albeit somewhat in a state of arrested development I am finding it difficult. Is there value in the church beyond what the church itself claims is valuable? So we will say things like it is a great place to raise your kids. In reality there are many better ways to raise your kids. This is just a value the church claims but in reality it is not a true value. Or at least it is a not value in the sense it is unique.
I asked a TBM where they found value and their response was it helps me understand the nature of god. But that is not a value because again it is just an understanding of god according to Mormonism. It is not like you get to meet god because you are Mormon.
I would find value if the church was growing intellectually and was a dynamic place of learning. But nothing of substance has been brought forth in 150 years. Compared to the rest of the world the church is stagnant. So I ask is there value in the church beyond the value it claims?
Having moved several times, there is great value in instant connection and support in your new locale. You immediately have people around you willing to help you move, babysit your kids, bring you meals, etc. People in Singapore pay $20K per year to belong to the American Club. We get better community benefits than that with a lower fee! A Hindu colleague of mine also pointed this out to me. He said he was impressed because he thought the Indian community in NYC was quite close and connected until he saw how the Mormon community immediately helped out when new people came to the area. My real view of the church (the organization) is that it (like family) should be mostly there in the background doing what it does. I don’t look to it to interpret God or the gospel for me. I can figure that stuff out on my own. It’s just a group of people who can be relied upon and a set of practices that keep us connected to others who are seeking to do what’s right. The problem is when the community or its authority or interpretation of the gospel starts to come before the gospel. It should be like your iPad. You don’t pay attention to the device – you choose the apps you are using and how you are using them. You forget it is there.
John Milton:
Quote:The mind is its own place, and in itself can make a heaven of hell, a hell of heaven…
I think an argument can be made that life itself is ultimately pointless, even if it is eternal. We tend to see what we look for, yes that is a trite and simplistic expression but it points out the opportunity to seek – or to complain.
The glass is never completely full, what are we going to do with that?
We create our own heaven, the purpose of StayLDS is to help us look for the rainbow so we don’t focus as much on the darkness of the clouds.
[Edit:] The situation also reminds me of a high school party where most of the kids there are only looking for the spiked punch bowl. If you have no interest in the drink is it pointless to go to the party? …Maybe, but I think it gets a lot more interesting when you realize there are other people there that are not drinking the punch.
[Disclaimer: to anyone reading thinking my punch analogy is a “kool-aid” gut punch, I am not talking about a general delusion of the church membership related to traditional truth claims. I am trying to relate to a distressed mind-set regarding self-delusion and phantom rose-smelling. It is not about the church in general, it is about our willingness to self-reflect and evaluate our personal limitations — as they relate to the human condition and challenge all people inside and outside the church.]
The Church works beautifully for those for whom it works beautifully, so-so for those for whom it works so-so and not at all for those for whom it works not at all. Generally, for most people, the biggest factor is local functionality or dysfunctionality. In other words, only you can determine the value for yourself.
Cadence – I don’t know you personally but from reading some of your other posts I get the sense that purpose for things is important. You have mentioned that the church is man made, with an implied sense that it is of less value because of that, in a sense I see your point. In another sense I don’t. So much of life is created by us or other humans. The holidays we celebrate, the traditions of our cultures, even the way we drive. With each of these we get to choose how they work for us. Halloween used to be a big deal when my kids were little, costumes, trick or treating with the neighbors (I have a cool neighborhood), my neighbors potluck that night. Halloween became valuable because of the interactions. Eighteen years have passed, the holiday has changed. The neighbor who hosted the potluck passed away from cancer, the kids are all grown up – but every year we all still decorate, we usually have a potluck in memory of our neighbor. We still decorate and light pumpkins for the kids who come down our street. Halloween isn’t real. It’s man made, and accentuated in America. For me it has value. Deep personal value.
I try to approach church the same way. It’s changed for me. Some of what used to be is gone, passed away, never to return. But some is still there. I love the sacrament – it’s very personal to me. I love many of the hymns. Mostly the Methodist ones we’ve kept, but when we sing them I am lifted to higher ground. I am learning to embrace the distance I feel with traditional believing members. Presently I focus on our share pasts, their kids who have grown, or an event we all enjoyed together. Not because of the “truthfulness” of it, but because of the bond.
Last of all – I love the Mormon God. I love his humanness, his interest in my life – I’m not just some pawn who he already set the course for and I just have to wait for him to put me in the place. He is a friend, a coach, a mentor, a guide, a parent.
If all of it doesn’t play out, I’ll be okay. I’ve learned one thing from the faith transition – to let go of my expectations. Just enjoy the journey.
mom3 wrote:
I try to approach church the same way. It’s changed for me. Some of what used to be is gone, passed away, never to return. But some is still there. I love the sacrament – it’s very personal to me. I love many of the hymns. Mostly the Methodist ones we’ve kept, but when we sing them I am lifted to higher ground. I am learning to embrace the distance I feel with traditional believing members. Presently I focus on our share pasts, their kids who have grown, or an event we all enjoyed together. Not because of the “truthfulness” of it, but because of the bond.Last of all – I love the Mormon God. I love his humanness, his interest in my life – I’m not just some pawn who he already set the course for and I just have to wait for him to put me in the place. He is a friend, a coach, a mentor, a guide, a parent.
If all of it doesn’t play out, I’ll be okay. I’ve learned one thing from the faith transition – to let go of my expectations. Just enjoy the journey.
Mom3 thank you so much for posting that! It is so profound and beautiful! It touched my heart in a way that I really needed today!
Cadence wrote:What is the value
Answer: 42
I understand that the value the church provides seems to be personal or unique to the individual. One may find pleasure in the community or doctrine or any host of other aspects of the church. I guess the question becomes is the value worth the effort? Your question “Is it really worth the effort?” My short answer – It’s up to you. My long answer – anything worth having takes cultivation. Now do I need the church to connect to God – probably not. History has proven God works with whomever and whatever is available. If there isn’t a God – in that singular format – does it matter. I think so. Years ago I worked for a Fortune 500 company in their Human Resources/Medical facility. We were a complete medical clinic on site for everyone there. From a paper cut, to allergy shot, to pregnancy tests. We covered it. We also covered wellness – two of our efforts were Weight Watchers and AA.
As I observed the AA people, many of them our CEO’s etc. – the battle alone could not be won. Part of AA’s charter is giving of yourself over to a higher power. They use the word God, yet everyone gets to interpret that anyway they want. They have a rote prayer they repeat at every meeting. I watched the people carefully. Over time I could see the people who had fully given their struggle to the higher power. I can not explain it, but believing that a force larger than self gave these intelligent, capable people an ounce of something they didn’t have. It was life changing. Does it prove God, No. There is no proof that I know of, but everyone of those people would tell you that God made the difference.
So how does this apply to church – Mormonism – for me my religion is where I practice my spirituality. The effort is worth it. I also practice it in my community, with my neighbors, in my volunteering, with my family. I believe I am better for it. It encourages me to be selfless. It invites me to consider who I am and what I believe. It also adds a safety net in my life.
Hawkgrrl mentioned the social connection. That is so helpful. I’ve watched as neighbors go church hunting. I don’t have to. I can assimilate quicker because one thing is there. On a deeper level though that safety net comes in very handy in unexpected times. Like a bank account of cash set aside. Not every ward is perfect at it, but often the “help” a ward can give is life saving. I watched it with my mom. For years she had been the server in the ward, suddenly an unexpected and undiagnosable illness took over her life. Church members stepped in. She had never put out the effort to cultivate her connection to the church with the hope of getting a return. But when it came – it really did become a life saver.
My final thought, have you ever read “Tuesday’s with Morrie”? For me it points to the value of human connection, that’s what I try to offer the church. They need it.
Cadence wrote:I guess the question becomes is the value worth the effort?
Now you are talking cost benefit analysis. I would ask if you can’t reduce the cost/effort until it becomes worth it to you to continue participating. As a grown man, I feel that I can adjust the demands of the church on my resourses according to my needs and desires. Unfortunatley – I must also consider the needs of my immediate family. If I am feeling that I give more than I get then I might try to negotiate with DW to find the minimum level of participation that she will accept. Might I refuse callings, pay tithing only on net, or DW’s wage, or not at all, attend only Sac. Mtg? All of these things are possibilities.
Roy wrote:Cadence wrote:I guess the question becomes is the value worth the effort?
Now you are talking cost benefit analysis. I would ask if you can’t reduce the cost/effort until it becomes worth it to you to continue participating. As a grown man, I feel that I can adjust the demands of the church on my resourses according to my needs and desires. Unfortunatley – I must also consider the needs of my immediate family. If I am feeling that I give more than I get then I might try to negotiate with DW to find the minimum level of participation that she will accept. Might I refuse callings, pay tithing only on net, or DW’s wage, or not at all, attend only Sac. Mtg? All of these things are possibilities.
I have already done that analysis. I participate to the level of the value I get. I would be considered an active apostate by most members.
Cadence, This thread makes me smile a bit because of the memory it has raised in me. 10-12 years ago, I sat down with a bishop to talk about where I was at with the church (non-believer, but participating). During the course of the conversation, I explained that I “still find value in the church”. He was struck by the term ‘value’ specifically and chided me about it a little. He thought it off that I would think of it in that way. In his mind, he explained, if he found out the church wasn’t true, he wouldn’t stay with it, because it would be too much effort and sacrifice to commit to something he didn’t believe in 
I went away chuckling about what a great pep-talk that was. He was a down-to-earth kind of bishop, and I appreciated his candor, but it was the case that he never could relate to me and my situation.So, for what it’s worth… I think you have the permission of at least one former bishop to walk away.
Cadence wrote:I participate to the level of the value I get. I would be considered an active apostate by most members.
Not to twist your words but “the level of value I get” implies that you do recognize some value. So do I understand that you want to compare notes with others that choose to stay and see what they value? Since your OP seemed to indicate that you didn’t find value in any of it, I am curious what specifically you find in the church of value.
“Active apostate”
This is rather tricky because many see apostasy as change from a perfect form to a degraded one. When someone is convinced that they are right the only perspective available to them is that you were once right too but then you “lost your way.” Perhaps people in my ward think I’m apostate. I wish that they didn’t but I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.
Roy wrote:Cadence wrote:I participate to the level of the value I get. I would be considered an active apostate by most members.
Not to twist your words but “the level of value I get” implies that you do recognize some value. So do I understand that you want to compare notes with others that choose to stay and see what they value? Since your OP seemed to indicate that you didn’t find value in any of it, I am curious what specifically you find in the church of value.
“Active apostate”
This is rather tricky because many see apostasy as change from a perfect form to a degraded one. When someone is convinced that they are right the only perspective available to them is that you were once right too but then you “lost your way.” Perhaps people in my ward think I’m apostate. I wish that they didn’t but I’m not going to lose any sleep over it.
The value I get is to keep my family intact. To go to my grandkids blessings because it is important to my kids and not be ostracized. To go to the temple when my last daughter decides that is the place to get married. To be as much a part of my family as the church has made itself out to be. Do I get any “spiritual” enhancement or value from the church I would have to say no. I find it a rather childlike religion with little advanced thinking in its current form. Maybe in the past it was dynamic but no more. So my value to stay is just family related and has little to nothing to do with the church teachings.
Cadence wrote:The value I get is to keep my family intact. To go to my grandkids blessings because it is important to my kids and not be ostracized. To go to the temple when my last daughter decides that is the place to get married. To be as much a part of my family as the church has made itself out to be. Do I get any “spiritual” enhancement or value from the church I would have to say no. I find it a rather childlike religion with little advanced thinking in its current form. Maybe in the past it was dynamic but no more. So my value to stay is just family related and has little to nothing to do with the church teachings.
Sounds like the church has become the glue and lifeblood of your family. I know that this comes with strings attached of (at times almost smothering) expectations but OTOH to have kids blessing grandkids and getting married in the temple is not the worst thing I could imagine. There is a heritage with the church, a sense of belonging to something greater that binds you through the generations. This, IMO, is a value not easily replaced through clubs, civic organizations, or even many other churches.
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