What is your idea of Heaven? Heres mine…

[Anonymous]

I have a thought about the afterlife that has been bouncing around in my head for several years and would like everyones take on it. I presented this to my Bishop a few years ago and was almost blasted for it. It could be because i didnt grow up in the church. So here goes…

I have always sortof thought that the afterlife would be whatever you imagined it to be. Your constructs of the afterlife would be affected by whether or not you did the things you felt you needed to do to get there. So in other words, if your an atheist and you believe there is nothing but darkness that is what you will exist in when you die. If you believe that “Heaven” is a big room where you are surrounded by friends and family and everyone will be there so be it. It is individual for everyone. But it is based on the rules you have established. If you dont do the things you feel you need to do…you dont go.

So how does this thought mesh with the church? To be honest i dont believe that our church is the only way to get into the afterlife with God. There have been way too many millions of souls that have passed on without our church to get there. If this was Gods plan it sure is ineffecient. I also have trouble with the idea of three degrees of glory. Talk about red tape and bureaucracy. When i presented this concept to my Bishop he had me spend an hour in his office where he educated me on what is correct. I dont even remember now what all he told me.

The reason why this bothers me so much is because i remember from reading the scriptures that God hates a hypocrite. What about people that are confused? Will i be deemed unworthy if i stay in a church where im not following all the rules? Will that automatically discount me from going to Heaven? Believe it or not this is one of the most worrisome things for me recently. It took me almost a year after i received my Endowment before i would let my fathers name be presented to the temple. I wanted to be sure about admitting him into something i still was unsure of. Im still not sure.

What do you think?

[Anonymous]

To answer your question: I haven’t thought about it very much.

I’m dealing with what is happening in this world to worry, consider or think about a heaven or the next life. My first reaction is: it’s another level to grow & hopefully progress.

You said:

Quote:

I have always sort of thought that the afterlife would be whatever you imagined it to be.

Does that include a person who maybe mentally or emotionally ill & thinks they are evil & deserves damnation will create for themselves a hell for their afterlife? I personally don’t believe that a loving God or Heavenly Father would let that happen.

[Anonymous]

This idea was explored in the Robin Williams film, “What Dreams May Come”.

Personally I don’t think Heaven will be as good as we imagine, I think it will be better than we *can* imagine.

[Anonymous]

I have my own psychosis to work through with respect to the afterlife. Here goes:

Remaining within the context of the three degrees of glory as taught by the church:

Often I’ve felt like the three degrees of glory are presented as things that require a certain level of righteousness in order to obtain but that’s the way celestial life is often presented with any religion. I have this mental image of a sign at an amusement park, you must be at least this righteous to ride.

I view it a bit differently. Sort of similar to what you say, I think we’ll ultimately end up where we want to be, if I want to inherit the celestial kingdom ultimately I will. That said I admit that if I want something that implies I’m actively working towards it. Living in the celestial kingdom appears to entail a lot of work, some people may look at that and decide it’s simply not for them. In that scenario they don’t attain the celestial kingdom because they didn’t want to be there, not because someone has judged them unworthy of being there… if that makes sense.

I’m not trying to say that people that don’t attain the celestial kingdom are lazy, I’m just using the imagined workload (if you will) to illustrate how people might want different things out of the afterlife. Why would god give people something they didn’t want? The argument can be made that a person inheriting the telestial kingdom would pine for the terrestrial or celestial kingdoms but I think that upon further reflection they might not actually want to.

Outside the confines of the afterlife as defined by the church:

These days I might fit in better with the Sadducees. I struggle to believe that there even is an afterlife. In that context I have my own personal take on Pascal’s Wager. If this life is the only life you’ve got you better make sure you find a way to find happiness in this life rather than suffer with the expectation that all happiness is to be deferred to an afterlife.

Some might look at that and see eat, drink, and be merry. I guess it all hinges on how you define the things that lead one to be truly happy. In many ways I think that view still works within the church. The gospel isn’t something that would defer happiness to a future time, it is something that helps us be happy now, in this life, and then have that happiness transition into the afterlife.

[Anonymous]

wornoutsneakers,

One of the hallmarks (and not in a good way) of Mormonism is treating speculation as fact. We can speculate about the pre-existence, but there is very little that is ‘doctrine’. Same is true for the nature of God, the judgment, the afterlife, eternal progression, degrees of glory, or what it means to be together forever. The best way to counter this, IMO, is to treat all these topics more vaguely. We know that God is a force for good, and we can pretty well define what ‘good’ is… and we don’t need to know whether God has a beard in order to do it. I love steak. Will I be able to eat steak in the afterlife? How, exactly, would I obtain a steak in the afterlife? A person could go nuts with the speculation. The afterlife, even in Mormonism can be boiled down to pretty simple concepts: Good people will be glad they were good… bad people will be sad they were bad… I think if we live our lives with that simplified vision in mind, then that is all we need from the concept of the afterlife. Doing good and being good and loving good… these should be concepts for this life, not hedges against punishment in the afterlife.

PS, Atheists don’t believe that there is “nothing but darkness” after we die. Atheists believe we cease to exist, as if we never existed… no memory… no concept of being… no anything… it’s just over… gone… In the Atheist view, neither Abraham Lincoln nor John Wilkes Booth exist anymore. There is no entity that used to be AL or JWB even to know that they ever existed or what their lives were like. It’s pretty bleak, although, I’d prefer that over “nothing but darkness”.

PPS, as an Atheist, I hope you and I are both dead wrong about the afterlife. I’d be very pleased to wake up on the other side of the veil and find that the Mormon concept was right. I’d much prefer to inhabit the Terrestrial Kingdom than to either live in darkness or be wiped from existence.

[Anonymous]

That’s the point I was about to make, OON. We really know so little about the afterlife that speculation is fairly useless. Not that it’s not fun to think about sometimes, but in the end it’s just a waste of time. Truth is, I spend very little time thinking about the afterlife – there’s too much happening here to be concerned with something we know almost nothing about.

[Anonymous]

wornoutsneakers wrote:

Will i be deemed unworthy if i stay in a church where I’m not following all the rules?

I have my own cause & effect view of “the rules.” To me rules are meant to approximate the results that a heart in the right place would naturally bring. The idea being if we act in a “Godly” way then eventually it will take root and we will become a Godly person. The real focus to me should be becoming a Godly person. The primary trait of God is love, then there are many others including intelligence, but the key is they all work harmoniously. Jesus was the perfect example, I believe he was showing us a model when he wasn’t as concerned with the letter of the law as the pharisees. The way I read he was trying to demonstrate the goal of becoming Godly. Hanging sweet fruit on a sour tree will only preserve an image for so long, the real focus should be on helping the tree reach its full potential – where it spontaneously produces good fruit on its own. (No specific rules would then be needed.)

Quote:

I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves.

In my view a real desire to fulfill this vision will bring exhortations to love, self-reflection, avoid judging, service, compassion, limit expectations of others, believe in yourself, share meaningful models, etc. etc.

I try to place heaven on earth, and let any afterlife take care of itself.

[Anonymous]

My idea of heaven is being with the people I love, with a perfectly functioning body, doing what I love.

My “believing side” thinks that we don’t know enough to even speculate.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

Remaining within the context of the three degrees of glory as taught by the church:

Often I’ve felt like the three degrees of glory are presented as things that require a certain level of righteousness in order to obtain but that’s the way celestial life is often presented with any religion. I have this mental image of a sign at an amusement park, you must be at least this righteous to ride.

I view it a bit differently. Sort of similar to what you say, I think we’ll ultimately end up where we want to be, if I want to inherit the celestial kingdom ultimately I will. That said I admit that if I want something that implies I’m actively working towards it. Living in the celestial kingdom appears to entail a lot of work, some people may look at that and decide it’s simply not for them. In that scenario they don’t attain the celestial kingdom because they didn’t want to be there, not because someone has judged them unworthy of being there… if that makes sense.

That is very close to what i think too Nibbler. Just that for those that are not members of the church may not call it by those names. To be honest, the three degrees of glory has to be some of the more difficult doctrine for me to accept and believe in. I have actually sat in Sacrament and looked around me and thought do all of these people really believe everything? But of course i cant vocally say that out loud….

[Anonymous]

On Own Now wrote:

as an Atheist, I hope you and I are both dead wrong about the afterlife. I’d be very pleased to wake up on the other side of the veil and find that the Mormon concept was right. I’d much prefer to inhabit the Terrestrial Kingdom than to either live in darkness or be wiped from existence.

[Anonymous]

Orson wrote:

wornoutsneakers wrote:

Will i be deemed unworthy if i stay in a church where I’m not following all the rules?

I have my own cause & effect view of “the rules.” To me rules are meant to approximate the results that a heart in the right place would naturally bring. The idea being if we act in a “Godly” way then eventually it will take root and we will become a Godly person. The real focus to me should be becoming a Godly person. The primary trait of God is love, then there are many others including intelligence, but the key is they all work harmoniously. Jesus was the perfect example, I believe he was showing us a model when he wasn’t as concerned with the letter of the law as the pharisees. The way I read he was trying to demonstrate the goal of becoming Godly. Hanging sweet fruit on a sour tree will only preserve an image for so long, the real focus should be on helping the tree reach its full potential – where it spontaneously produces good fruit on its own. (No specific rules would then be needed.)

But what about belonging to a church that requires me to believe in those things to be a member? If i say i am a member, but yet dont follow all the rules, then by rights i should be punished for not practicing what i preach. That is being hypocritical. Doc and Cov 41:5—“He that receiveth my law and doeth it, the same is my disciple; and he that saith he receiveth it and doeth it not, the same is not my disciple, and shall be cast out from among you”..plus numerous mentions in the Bible.

[Anonymous]

wornoutsneakers wrote:

But what about belonging to a church that requires me to believe in those things to be a member? If i say i am a member, but yet dont follow all the rules, then by rights i should be punished for not practicing what i preach. That is being hypocritical. Doc and Cov 41:5—“He that receiveth my law and doeth it, the same is my disciple; and he that saith he receiveth it and doeth it not, the same is not my disciple, and shall be cast out from among you”..plus numerous mentions in the Bible.

To my mind, the key phrase in that scripture is “my law.” Are the church’s rules the same thing as God’s law? How many of the church’s rules do you have to follow to get into heaven? Are there any rules that are not requirements for getting into heaven? Even for rules that may be required, obviously we all fall short. How much can we fall short and still get in? Is it enough if you continue to try?

[Anonymous]

A condition of love spent with loved ones – with the understanding that everyone is lovable when the limitations of mortality cease.

[Anonymous]

Daeruin wrote:

To my mind, the key phrase in that scripture is “my law.” Are the church’s rules the same thing as God’s law? How many of the church’s rules do you have to follow to get into heaven? Are there any rules that are not requirements for getting into heaven? Even for rules that may be required, obviously we all fall short. How much can we fall short and still get in? Is it enough if you continue to try?

What would you characterize then as a “church rule” and seperate from God’s law?

[Anonymous]

wornoutsneakers wrote:

Daeruin wrote:

To my mind, the key phrase in that scripture is “my law.” Are the church’s rules the same thing as God’s law? How many of the church’s rules do you have to follow to get into heaven? Are there any rules that are not requirements for getting into heaven? Even for rules that may be required, obviously we all fall short. How much can we fall short and still get in? Is it enough if you continue to try?

What would you characterize then as a “church rule” and seperate from God’s law?

There are too many church rules to list. I’m not going to speak for Daeruin, but in my view even things like the Word of Wisdom would be on this list

[Author]

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