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Thanks for the follow-up Roadrunner.
Roadrunner wrote:My understanding is that some people experience attraction to both male and female and sometimes experience more attraction to one sex more than to the other (a preference if you will, while still attracted to both genders). Say for example I’m male and mostly attracted “mostly” to women but every once in a while I’m attracted to another man. In this case I could see the need for a young person “figuring out” if they are gay or bisexual. Again, I’m not advocating for pre-marital sex here.
This is my understanding as well, hence the LGBT and sometimes Q. I am not an expert, but I do know some people who fit into each of the categories. As far as I understand, bisexual individuals are generally attracted to one gender more than the other but may have satisfying sexual relations with either gender. I should note that it is quite possible and not unusual, however, that (as far as I understand) homosexuals can generally also have sex with the opposite gender and that is why we have married gay fathers and lesbian mothers.
Quote:I think most teenagers “experiment” whether it’s overtly sexual or not, regardless of sexual orientation. We figure out what kind of people we want to date and be with. We experiment and learn how to kiss. We hold hands with fingers interlocking and with only palms interlocking. Many teenagers date multiple people at the same time – I consider that experimentation. My definition of “experiment” is fairly broad and includes but is not limited to sexual experimentation.
I think I agree with what you are saying – we figure out how to interact with those whom we court and marry by things like flirting, holding hands, kissing, and sometimes various forms of sexual relations, and this generally happens in our teen years. Judging by the youth I have watched grow up in my own ward, sex is more common than the more orthodox members would like to admit or may be aware of. I am not advocating it, I believe in the law of chastity (although not that it is second in seriousness only to murder), but I am saying it is more common than many would like to think or admit. I sincerely doubt guilt stops anyone from masturbating (based on having raised three sons.)
Quote:Kissing to me is not a sin and almost by definition will include some passion (per Ray’s point). I can see a youth interpreting church policy and concluding “if gay marriage is wrong, how can gay kissing not be wrong.” That’s the basis of my question about kissing.
I can see not only youth thinking or believing this, I can see many adults doing so. Not only are most teenagers black and white thinkers, so are many adults. I believe most active adults in the church still believe SSA itself is a sin, being unaware of the official church stance. Even if they do agree with the current church stance, it is easy to make the jump that “if gay sex or marriage is wrong, so is kissing.” The problem with black and white thinking is that so many things are not black or white, and those of us here should understand that most. “It is not that simple.” We must all come to an understanding of our own relationship with God, with or without the church, and we must all come to an understanding of the commandments on our own. You can advise your young friend, but he or she must decide if kissing steps over the line of sin.
Quote:My wife is a good person and I love her dearly but she and I often disagree about church doctrine and policy. She advises that leaders stick to official policy 100%. My belief is that I don’t add any value if I fasten a church handbook to the door along with a poster that says “see handbook for answers to any questions.” As a ward leader my job is to add context, understanding, love, even disagreement as I see necessary. It’s the disagreement and how to share that appropriately that I struggle with. As DJ and Ray point out, it’s not advisable to do over the pulpit, but I think I can in private. Even in private I want to do it appropriately.
Funny, I was just thinking about this the other day. There are exceptions to the rules in the handbook – they are not commandments. I have personally witnessed some of these exceptions as they have been undertaken by those with authority to do so. I will offer one such example: A teenage young man who came from a part member family where he was not allowed to hold the priesthood because his father forbade it was allowed to enter the temple with his temple trip group at the behest of the temple president who said when questioned “I am president of the temple, I can do what I do want, and this is the right thing to do.” One of the bishops I was counselor to viewed the handbook as nothing more than a guide, and strongly believed that the Spirit trumped the book and often did things in opposition to the book if he felt is was right. (FWIW, I was much more orthodox in those days and did not always agree with him – but always supported him.)
Quote:If my son were to come to me and say “I’m gay” I would tell him that I’d rather he live a life of happiness in a meaningful relationship than an unsatisfying life as a fully active LDS lifestyle. For many as the church current stands, those two things can be mutually exclusive. I can see a time in the future when I might have to sit down with parents and explain this to them and explain that they’ll need to figure out what to tell their kid. Are they going to say to their child “You must be active LDS at all costs or you might have to choose a same-sex relationship over conventional LDS participation at this time.”
I totally agree, although I am not sure my wife would. I would not envy anyone in the position of having to speak to a parent about that, but I think I would tell them what I believe. I was actually quite inspired by the reaction of the Christofferson parents as stated in the news article a few months back. That is what I would want, and think it is also inspiring that Elder Christofferson’s brother lives in a relationship and is active – and welcome – in his ward. I’m sure it is not easy, and there is systematic discrimination in place (bishops must be married, single males over 30 can’t be ordinance workers, etc.). Frankly, neither of the parents of the two boys who grew up in my ward who have adult gay sons really get it – they all hope theirs sons will someday “repent” and return. One of the parents has exhibited some glimmers of hope of understanding, though, and recently said something to the effect of “maybe it’s not him who needs to change, maybe it’s me.”
Quote:One other important point – I struggle with how to tell a youth that I disagree with current policy. Many adults can understand nuance but a young teenager can interpret even a very carefully worded and precise explanation completely wrong.
You’re right, because they generally think more black and white. I’m not sure how I would do it, either. I know this is a bit trite, but I’d try to follow the Spirit. What you say in the next quote works for me:
Quote:I believe all people have a place in Heavenly Father’s plan but that we may not understand His plan completely at this time. Our interpretation of his plan as a people and as individuals may change over time.
Hi Roadrunner: I don’t really have an answer to your question, but rather some resources that might help you as a leader. Also resources that may help families who have children who are LGBTQ.
I’m pretty sure that when my gay child came out to our local church leader (before we even knew they were gay), they were told that crossing that line of attraction
at allwas a big problem. I believe he included hand holding. I don’t agree with that and feel it is a double standard. The resources below may be helpful to leaders and families in that they discuss the biggest issues facing LDS LGBT youth, which are suicide and drug/alcohol abuse. Keeping these kids alive and loved by their families should be top priority. Our church leader expressed that he wished he had been more informed when this issue presented itself to him with basically no warning. I have provided these materials to our local church leader as I’m sure my child won’t be the only one this may come up with.
http://affirmation.org/resources/packet-of-materials-to-share-with-leaders-family-and-friends/ Thanks for caring so much.
Harmony
In regards to knowing if you are gay or not without experimenting a bit, I can only say that my child figured this out without kissing or being physically involved with anyone. They knew it innately, kind of like most of us do. I had a Bishop once who said the following to a very faithful young man who is gay, to the best of my memory: Quote:I hope you can continue to attend church, go to the temple and be happy as an active member with the Gospel as an important part of your life. I also hope you can enjoy Christmas dinner with the person you love with all your heart in the presence of your parents and family – at home and at our annual Christmas party. If you can’t do both, at least keep the Gospel in your heart and don’t condemn the Church for not being ready right now.
That same Bishop told me:
Quote:I don’t see our gay youth as part of a problem; I see them as part of the solution. The key, I think, is whether or not we drive them away before they can be part of the solution.
I really, really, really love that man.
DarkJedi wrote:Judging by the youth I have watched grow up in my own ward, sex is more common than the more orthodox members would like to admit or may be aware of.
Yes, I think pre-marital sex and other sins such as drugs are more common than many LDS want to believe. I don’t have hard numbers of course. On a related note, I was recently talking to a stake president not in my stake who said straight up that we get into members’ bedrooms way more than we should. He also told me that the “sexual sin is next to murder” notion applies only in the context of incest and rape. It was a distinction I hadn’t heard before.
DarkJedi wrote:I was actually quite inspired by the reaction of the Christofferson parents as stated in the news article a few months back. That is what I would want, and think it is also inspiring that Elder Christofferson’s brother lives in a relationship and is active – and welcome – in his ward.
Maybe I live under a rock but I missed all of that. I’ll have to go look at that.
Ray – really like what you shared about your bishop.
Harmony – thanks for sharing about your child and thank you for the resources. I’ll look into them.
It just makes me sad that a teenager (those years are difficult in the best circumstances) has to worry about whether their own church and parents accept them. More than one has cried to me when they think that a gay person would have to live a celibate life. I really hope this changes and want to do my own small part.
I don’t have a great answer, but to me, this is a very difficult question because kids today are not prejudiced against homosexuals and are not homophobic to any degree–at least my kids are not. So the stigma to being gay is something that is disproportionately encountered at church. I blogged about it because the answers from the top are very clear that we don’t encourage homosexual behavior in any way, but the attitudes and prejudices that support that stance don’t exist for subsequent generations. How are we (in practical terms) supposed to get people on board with something they simply don’t see that way? Anyone’s guess. Old-Timer wrote:I had a Bishop once who said the following to a very faithful young man who is gay, to the best of my memory:
Quote:I hope you can continue to attend church, go to the temple and be happy as an active member with the Gospel as an important part of your life. I also hope you can enjoy Christmas dinner with the person you love with all your heart in the presence of your parents and family – at home and at our annual Christmas party. If you can’t do both, at least keep the Gospel in your heart and don’t condemn the Church for not being ready right now.
That same Bishop told me:
Quote:I don’t see our gay youth as part of a problem; I see them as part of the solution. The key, I think, is whether or not we drive them away before they can be part of the solution.
I really, really, really love that man.
This is so true. I’ve been struck lately at how utterly and obviously different my kids’ attitudes are from the ones I held. Those days are gone.
Old-Timer wrote:[
Admin Note]: DaddyB, your points can be made without equating or comparing homosexuality to pedophilia. That is a comparison that has been used in despicable, terrible ways throughout history and has been (and still is) twisted to slander homosexuals unfairly and inaccurately (since more pedophiles are straight than gay, and it’s not statistically close). It won’t be allowed here. All such comparisons in any future comments will be deleted without explanation.
Sorry if I offended anyone. The only comparison I wanted to make between pedophilia and homosexuality was that they are both serious sins that abuse our procreative powers. That is the only relationship I meant. Homosexual behavior is labeled a serious sin by God’s prophets from the beginning and no prophet has ever wavered on it. It seems many of the posters here seem to think the prophets must have gotten this one wrong. Of course it is also a sin to not love the sinner here as in any other sin. We all have our weaknesses toward certain sins. Just because some have acted out in hate toward the violators of this commandment, doesn’t mean it isn’t a commandment anymore. Why is it okay to have sex outside of marriage(as defined by the church) if you are homosexual and not okay if you are heterosexual? How can anyone who believes in the Bible and especially those who also believe in living prophets think that homosexual behavior is suddenly not a sin? Please help me understand the thinking here.Daddy B, This is a very complicated issue, and not at all cut and dried. The Brethren have had several approaches to this issue in the past 50 years, and they continue to change on this stuff.
I’m going to be blunt: I think you’ll find the answer to your question by going out, making the acquaintance of several gay people, and listen, really listen to their stories. Get some empathy, and then come back to the discussion.
Quote:Unless it’s very short, kissing is a form of foreplay.
So is gazing into someones eyes, holding hands, short kisses, talking etc.
A leader should express love and understanding. They can offer guidance and advice as they are asked. A leader’s primary role is to express love not judgement.
turinturambar wrote:Daddy B,
This is a very complicated issue, and not at all cut and dried. The Brethren have had several approaches to this issue in the past 50 years, and they continue to change on this stuff.
I’m going to be blunt: I think you’ll find the answer to your question by going out, making the acquaintance of several gay people, and listen, really listen to their stories. Get some empathy, and then come back to the discussion.
The brethren have had several approaches in teaching the same doctrine as the culture changes. The brethren have shown an increase of understanding for people challenged by this. But the fact that homosexual behavior is a serious sin has not varied in any way. Show me one example where the severity of this sin has diminished at all. Show me one example where the severity of this sin is not completely cut and dried.And about my empathy toward people who are gay. I have spent hours and hours in discussions and just listening to the gay perspective. My perspective has indeed drastically changed on this issue. You have no idea. Because of his talk last conference, some would like to assume that Elder Oaks has not taken the effort to do the same, but they would be way wrong. Just because I love, respect and have empathy for people who have certain challenges does not change the laws of God. The more we value someone or empathize with their situation, the more deeply we love them as a brother or sister, the more important it is to not waver from what God has revealed about what will bring them ultimate happiness. God’s laws are not to punish or to bring misery. They are the only way to real peace and happiness. Help me see where I am wrong here.
[ Admin Note]: It’s easy to take words on a screen, completely devoid of other cues, and assume things about people we really don’t know very well. All of us are guilty of that to one degree or another – both in how we read other people’s words and in how we write our own. That is true especially with regard to highly emotional and deeply personal topics like this one. Again, this is NOT a thread to discuss homosexuality in general. It is about what a leader should say to a gay or lesbian youth. Given that what religious leaders have said throughout time about homosexuality and all things related to it really has changed (from the Bible to the present, focused on Jewish, early Christian and Mormon leaders), and in some cases quite dramatically, the question of this thread is relevant and important.
I am going to pull out my admin hammer and be more active in using it if comments stray from the question of the post, and I am cleaning up this thread to focus more on the actual question. It’s an incredibly important question, and we can’t let it get derailed.
So:
Quote:What should a leader say to a gay or lesbian youth?
Old-Timer wrote:[
Quote:What should a leader say to a gay or lesbian youth?
“Being sexually attracted to members of your own gender is not a sin. Premarital sex with anyone, regardless is. Having sexual relations with your legal partner, regardless of gender, whether for procreation or bonding, is approved by God.”
The end.
DaddyB wrote:..
. It seems many of the posters here seem to think the prophets must have gotten this one wrong.
Correct. The prophets were wrong on this one.
I inadvertently deleted a comment from SamBee. I apologize for that. What he said, basically, was: Quote:A peck is not foreplay; french kissing is.
The comment is being left in place, because I assume it is part of what Sam believes a leader should tell a gay or lesbian youth – and also a straight youth.
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