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DarkJedi wrote:
Looks like Deseret News might give you a bit of help today:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865604750/LDS-blacks-scholars-cheer-churchs-essay-on-priesthood.html ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865604750/LDS-blacks-scholars-cheer-churchs-essay-on-priesthood.html I forwarded that to him…. timing is everything!
Thanks for sharing this story, Bill. There was a great lesson given in EQ about the priesthood. Although it was a great lesson, I keep wanting to correct them every time I hear the statement “The Prophet will never lead the church astray.” I know that was mentioned in The Manifesto at the end of D & C, but statements like that aren’t found or hinted at in any of the standard works. I keep finding teachings that the prophet can reveal doctrine, preach repentance, gain revelation, prophesy, or have visions for the Lord’s church, but none that they can never teach the wrong thing. Church history shows us that some of the mistakes prophets of our church have made teach the wrong doctrine or incorrectly interpret doctrine. Should I ever bring up any of that or should I just keep quiet? And if I ever do need to speak out, how do I do it without causing contention? I find it interesting that after a prophet makes a statement, everyone treats it as doctrine and revelation. Then, as they find the “doctrine” is unpopular in light of current social pressures or perhaps even the membership finds it distasteful, the “doctrine” becomes a theory. This allows everyone to protect their mind from anxiety — they can still believe everything a prophet says is doctrine and direct revlation, while shucking the newly distasteful “doctrine” at the same time. It’s a good way of having your cake, and eating it too. Also very surprised this disavowal did not rock testimonies or dampen our members’ tendency to believe everything that comes out of the mouth of a prophet is flawless.
No way, no more. Prophets can, and do lead us astray — personal conscience trumps prophetic “revelation.”
writer63 wrote:I have a friend who had an equivalent experience when another member told her that she was less valiant because she was a convert and not BIC! She actually told her that no matter how quickly she progressed in the gospel, she would never “catch up” spiritually with members who grew up in the church. My friend called me in tears and was considering giving up because “what was the point?” I gave her the truth in no uncertain terms and told her exactly what to say to that sister (whose husband was the bishop, BTW.)
It’s unfounded/offensive ideas like these that hang around and won’t seem to die that make it hard to Stay LDS sometimes. Life is full of enough trial and heartache. Why go around creating more? Sometimes I just want to stand up in SS and say, “Ok, this is how it really is People…!”
(end of rant)
Absolute sacriledge. I’ve never heard that one before — that converts were less valiant than BIC’s. Why is it that human nature wants to create class structures and pecking orders even when there is no foundation for them???? Is our need for importance and self-esteem so great we have to resort to putting others down to make ourselves feel better?
Quote:Is our need for importance and self-esteem so great we have to resort to putting others down to make ourselves feel better?
Yes, unfortunately, that is “the natural person” – and very few people are completely above it.
I gained a lot of peace when I quit expecting people to be completely above it and allowed the times when they are even partially above it to be a revelation and a joy.
DB: I’m so glad you are in the church! You make me proud to be a Mormon, truly. Thanks for the kind words but I am full of my own weaknesses If you weren’t full of weaknesses, you’d be far less interesting! Jesus is pretty interesting….. hmmmm My HT has not written me back which is concerning. DBMormon wrote:My HT has not written me back which is concerning.
Concerning because you think you tipped him over the edge? Or concerning because you think he thinks you’re over the edge? Or concerning because you think he’s up to something else? Or concerning because you think he may not care or want to associate with you any more? Or some other concern?
I don’t know him, but he may just be digesting and composing, or he may be embarrassed and not know how to respond.
DarkJedi wrote:DBMormon wrote:My HT has not written me back which is concerning.
Concerning because you think you tipped him over the edge? Or concerning because you think he thinks you’re over the edge? Or concerning because you think he’s up to something else? Or concerning because you think he may not care or want to associate with you any more? Or some other concern?
I don’t know him, but he may just be digesting and composing, or he may be embarrassed and not know how to respond.
Or concerning because you think he may not care or want to associate with you any more?more than anything. I don’t care whether people think less of me, as I am pretty confident in what I know and how I think about issues and my willingness to adapt… so if someone thinks I am off the reservation, I won’t lose sleep. What I am worried about is that such black and white thinkers will be offended and hurt by such an email no matter how charitable and kind I tried to phrase it, no matter what evidence and quotes from leaders I provide, and no matter how necessary it was. What I don’t want is he being hurt and hesitant to talk about such things. DBMormon wrote:DarkJedi wrote:DBMormon wrote:My HT has not written me back which is concerning.
Concerning because you think you tipped him over the edge? Or concerning because you think he thinks you’re over the edge? Or concerning because you think he’s up to something else? Or concerning because you think he may not care or want to associate with you any more? Or some other concern?
I don’t know him, but he may just be digesting and composing, or he may be embarrassed and not know how to respond.
Or concerning because you think he may not care or want to associate with you any more?more than anything. I don’t care whether people think less of me, as I am pretty confident in what I know and how I think about issues and my willingness to adapt… so if someone thinks I am off the reservation, I won’t lose sleep. What I am worried about is that such black and white thinkers will be offended and hurt by such an email no matter how charitable and kind I tried to phrase it, no matter what evidence and quotes from leaders I provide, and no matter how necessary it was. What I don’t want is he being hurt and hesitant to talk about such things. Yes, it would be sad if this damaged your relationship, and particularly if it meant that you could not discuss issues with meaning to you (especially since he’s your home teacher). There is a discussion happening about the Deseret News article on another, more orthodox forum I sometimes visit (but don’t comment). It does seem as though the old guard hardline black and white thinkers (most of them there) are having a very difficult time accepting the idea that prophets could have been wrong about something. I understand that because if you admit they were wrong about one thing it opens the door to the idea they could have been wrong about other things – but perhaps that’s a door the leadership of the church is willing to be allowed to be opened now.
If your the oldguard – How do you reconcile Eder Uchtdorf’s “we may have made mistakes that violated our doctrine” (not an exact quote but captures the jist)? We may have made mistakes means he is ok acknowledging that mistakes may have occurred and the Church still be of God.
DBMormon wrote:If your the oldguard – How do you reconcile Eder Uchtdorf’s “we may have made mistakes that violated our doctrine” (not an exact quote but captures the jist)?
We may have made mistakes means he is ok acknowledging that mistakes may have occurred and the Church still be of God.
Pres. Uchtdorf’s exact quote was “And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.”
I don’t have to reconcile because I believe Pres. Uchtdorf was acknowledging mistakes and I believe that message was given right then for a reason (that being the forthcoming release of the essays).
I know what you’re saying and I’m not sure I’m capable of thinking that way anymore. Contributors on the other site I mentioned have some sort of seemingly apologetic ways of explaining it. Things I saw there are that it was doctrine at the time (the essay doesn’t refute that when taken word for word) and that the essay only says the explanations are false, not the “doctrine” (in my mind that still says prophets were wrong because prophets used the explanations). While I have not seen Pres. Uchtdorf’s quote brought up there (and I’m not going to go look, I can only handle that site a little at a time), my guess would be that they would say he was referring to local leaders and not the prophets, apostles, or other general authorities.
The old guard tends to only consider things that fit their point of view, and I suppose everyone does that to some extent.
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