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Interesting evening at YW. I am one of the counselors in the presidency, and the other counselor is a young newly married and fairly recent convert (less than 2 years I think). Anyway, she started talking to me about how she was reading all sorts of things about the church online over the weekend and was very surprised to find out many things she never knew about the church (polygamy, masonry, origins of rlds church, etc.). She said her husband (who grew up in the church) was trying to get her to stop looking at the stuff she was reading, but she was adamant that she wanted to know everything there is to know about her religion. 😯 She really caught me off guard. At first I started answering some of her questions about about Emma Smith and JS III (namely how she lied to him and her other children regarding their father’s involvement in polgamy), but then (believe it or not) I stopped the conversation. I just didn’t feel comfortable talking about it at church. (BTW this was AFTER the activity, so almost all the yw had gone home at this point). Unfortunately, one of the yw who was still there did hear us talking and said in a loud voice, “What??? Joseph Smith practiced polygamy??!!” Oops.
I actually felt genuinely concerned for this girl… and I still do, which is the point of this post. I have always thought of her as such a sweet molly, and I am worried what her information search will do to her… especially considering what it did to me, and I never even had a testimony to begin with. She, on the other hand is hard-core.
I don’t know if I did the right thing, but I cautioned her to be careful. I told her that a lot of what she might find out as she digs deeper into church history won’t exactly be faith-promoting. I didn’t know what else to say. I also did recommend Mormon Enigma if she wanted to learn more about Emma Smith… was that a mistake? Probably.
Rats, I am really in uncharted territory here… I haven’t even outed myself as a “secular mormon” yet, so I feel I have to be careful what I say around other members. I want to be there for her, but I just have a bad feeling that she isn’t going to be happy about what she finds out.
Any suggestions about how to handle this as I am sure it is going to come up again? BTW, I don’t think she is at the point yet where this forum will be helpful to her, but I suppose that could change very fast.
I don’t think we should ever push people into the controversy. On the other hand, *WE* (people that gravitate towards this online forum) are exactly the kind of people to be there when it is someone’s time to find the information. There is nobody better equiped to be their friends than someone who has been a little farther down the path. I call us “safe people” because we can handle these discussions. Well, at least not be totally freaked out by them. My personal approach is to position myself as a resource to others. I let them bring up the topics and sort of lead the direction of topics. That way, you are not introducing them to more problems, but instead helping them see more possibilities with the ones they already are working on. I think you could be really helpful to the other person in your presidency. It sounds like it might be their time. I really believe in way that God calls people to pass through this, not everyone, just the people that it is right for. They will find the stuff on the internet, or have a few too many questions because things don’t make sense, or read some book, whatever. At some point, people start to see through to the next hill. Unfortunately, there is valley of shadow in between.
Be there for these people. Be their friend. Be someone “safe” they can talk openly to, who won’t freak out when they ask questions. That is why we are here. My heart breaks when I hear stories about people who struggle with all these things, and think they can’t talk to someone about it, that they are all alone.
Amen, valoel. Be there for her. Don’t shy away from being open and honest. If she’s searching the internet, she’s probably going to get the most negative slant; she needs to know that there are people who understand already what she is beginning to understand who are finding ways to maintain overall faith – and in many cases, learn to see things in a much more charitable, accepting, non-judgmental way.
I really agree with the suggestions given. I would never make someone deal with this stuff, but if they are doing it I want to be there for them. I feel like that is part of my purpose in life-to counsel others. Sometimes during this journey I have wished for a person at church who I could talk to about all of it. I hope I can be that person for someone else.
Oh, and I would suggest anyone going through this to continue to pray, meditate, study the scriptures and take it slow.
Well, I (as usual) have a different spin on it. Man, I am even unorthodox for the group of unorthodox people. 😯 Let me start by saying I agree with what people have said up to now about being there for her. However, that is only if I look at it from within the Mormon box. If one takes a step back and tries to observe the situation, it honestly looks a little silly. The idea that you are concerned about giving her the “red pill,” as it were, is a bit strange to me. I recognize “truth” is often (or even always) relative. But you can certainly lay out the (best we know) historical facts in a way that doesn’t push her into anti-mormon territory.
Your comment about cautioning her about what she reads hits on a nerve of mine. I had so many people tell me this and I got so aggravated. IMO this assumes that the individual must be cautious because there is something so scary out there that, if read, will send them off the Mormon cliff. This is a scare tactic (even if you didn’t mean it that way). It instills fear in people where there should be confidence and understanding. My approach, rather than tell her to be cautious, would be to give her direction on where to look. This is something none of my TBM friends or family (when I first started this journey) could tell me. I would often ask for suggestions about where to go to find more information about this. Not a single person could/would tell me. All they would do is insist I be cautious. I don’t believe that I am unique in my ability to discern well done scholarly research from anti-mormon and apologist tactics. And, more importantly, everyone should learn how to do this as well as it is part of learning how to make good choices.
Moreover, I think, asha, you have a fantastic opportunity in front of you. You have the opportunity to help someone learn to make good decisions rather than simply focus on the decision itself. (this is one of my pet ideas) So often in society, and the church, we are bombarded with pressures to make the decision that some organization thinks is the “right” one. No one ever teaches us
howto actually make good decisions. I recently attended a military intelligence seminar in which the psychology behind intelligence analysis was discussed. I learned more in that hour about making good decisions amongst a multitude of information than I have my entire life up until now. This is what we should be aiming for, IMHO. To close, this is one of my favorite quotes from one of the last free-thinking, open GAs of our time, Hugh B. Brown:
Hugh B. Brown wrote:Fear will not stifle thought, as is the case in some areas which have not yet emerged from the Dark Ages. God himself refuses to trammel man’s free agency even though its exercise sometimes teaches painful lessons. Both creative science and revealed religion find their fullest and truest expression in the climate of freedom…Only error needs to fear freedom of expression. Seek truth in all fields, and in that search you will need at least three virtues; courage, zest, and modesty. The ancients put that thought in the form of a prayer. They said, ‘From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth, from the laziness that is content with half truth, from the arrogance that thinks it has all truth—O God of truth deliver us’.
The last line is particularly enlightening. Do not be afraid of helping her find the truth. You don’t need to push her, but I don’t think you need to shy away from it, or be sorry about it. The truth, no matter what it is, sets us free (contrary to various quotes by other GAs)!That quote from Elder Brown is one of my favorites also. My mother had the chance to work closely with him for a year before she married my father, and she adored him. She says he was one of the nicest, most genuinely loving men she’s ever known. Great post jmb275! I guess my line is-I won’t add more topics to their quest. I would let their journey progress naturally and assist on whatever topic they are currently studying.
But I agree, sometimes my DH acts like if it isn’t on LDS.org it must be false. It can be very frustrating.
just me wrote:I guess my line is-I won’t add more topics to their quest. I would let their journey progress naturally and assist on whatever topic they are currently studying.
I think that is a great motto. I would never push anyone in that direction either, but I would also not discourage them, or caution them. I would try to help them find reliable information and learn to find the truth (whatever that is/means).Thanks, jmb, I LOVE that quote by Hugh B. Brown, it’s wonderful. I also thank you for being so up front with your thoughts on this matter.
jmb275 wrote:Your comment about cautioning her about what she reads hits on a nerve of mine. I had so many people tell me this and I got so aggravated. IMO this assumes that the individual must be cautious because there is something so scary out there that, if read, will send them off the Mormon cliff. This is a scare tactic (even if you didn’t mean it that way). It instills fear in people where there should be confidence and understanding. My approach, rather than tell her to be cautious, would be to give her direction on where to look. This is something none of my TBM friends or family (when I first started this journey) could tell me. I would often ask for suggestions about where to go to find more information about this.
Your comments caused me to reflect on what my motivation might have been in cautioning this girl. Like you, I get really aggravated when people caution me about what I read regarding the church. In fact, I would have to say that one of my biggest beefs with many of the leaders of the church is how they discourage members from reading anything that is not considered a “faithful history” of the church. My DH says that the church is very protective of its members, but that just makes me feel patronized like a little child who cannot be trusted to figure things out for themselves. I really resent it. So, I question why I felt it necessary to perpetuate this trend with her. The only answer I can come up with is an embarrassing one… even though I did feel genuine concern for her, I think I was also trying to protectmyself. I am convinced that if the two of us had been sitting in my family room at home, the conversation would have gone quite differently. Instead, as soon as I recommended Mormon Enigma to her I felt conspicuous. I back-pedaled a bit and told her that the bishop might not approve of me recommending that book to her. I really don’t want to be regarded as the one who led this girl down a path that most members would view as questionable. I was very uncomfortable having that discussion in a church setting, and I could tell it really troubled the yw president as well, and she is someone I really respect. I like what
just mewrote as well: just me wrote:I won’t add more topics to their quest. I would let their journey progress naturally and assist on whatever topic they are currently studying.
I think this is how I will deal with questions from now on. I will answer as honestly and straightforwardly as possible, without pushing them in one way or another, and without burdening them with more information than they ask for. However, I still don’t think I will be comfortable talking about these issues at church. I am really trying to fly under the radar right now… there is enough for me to deal with on the home front (my DH has asked his fellow high-councilmen to pray for our family as I question my testimony…
what testimony would that be?) I can’t deal with other people at church worrying about where I stand right now and (oh the horror) possibly turning me into a project. Like I have said before, my ward is relatively small by U.S. standards (actually we are the biggest ward in the stake) so everyone is in everyone else’s business. I thought I was trying to protect this girl, and that is partly true, but if I am honest it had more to do with self-preservation. I am a bit ashamed, but I also feel like I was really caught off guard, and I don’t think on my feet very well. Hopefully next time I can do better.
Meanwhile, another bit of fallout from this is that my best friend who recently moved out of the ward and who was the yw pres for the past two years (and is still VERY protective of the yw), totally chewed me out for talking about such “inappropriate” things when any yw were around. She said she wouldn’t be surprised if the yw who was asking about JS’s polygamy tells her mother who will in turn go and complain to the bishop. So, who knows what might have been started here.
I guess overall, I always feel like truth should stand on its own. I don’t understand guidance from leaders to “stay away” from certain books. If the book is a bunch of lies, why should I worry if I read it? Am I not adult enough to figure out what is true and what is not? Do I have to rely on leaders to tell me what is true? If so, I say they go back to putting the bible into latin and we can have bishops read it to us and interpret it for us. @asha You know what I wouldn’t feel ashamed at all. I have been in that same position before, and cautioned others for the exact same reason – to protect myself. I am getting better at trying not to do that. And personally, I am still flying low on the radar. I never speak up in any meetings, and haven’t been asked to pray, or speak (despite being rather new in the ward, and despite my bishop telling me he would ask me to speak (that’s before I divulged my journey to him)).
In all honesty though, it is a useful exercise to examine why you (and me, and others) feel we need to give some kind of caution. After some thought I personally believe it is the culture that has been created. That is to say, because you have now been chewed out by your fellow YW leader, you will have a disincentive to speak up about it next time, and may try to fly even lower on the radar, as it were. All this in spite of the overwhelming fact that you are trying to be truthful. You’re not trying to destroy people’s faith, you’re trying to be honest. How can anyone fault you for that?
We need to recognize, however, that this is all fear of man, which is never good IMHO. It is instructive, I think, to examine why people think what they think about us as we can learn and grow by seeking the opinions of others. But when we worry simply about what they will think rather than why they think it, we have crossed into the “fear of man” territory.
Heber13 wrote:I guess overall, I always feel like truth should stand on its own. I don’t understand guidance from leaders to “stay away” from certain books. If the book is a bunch of lies, why should I worry if I read it? Am I not adult enough to figure out what is true and what is not? Do I have to rely on leaders to tell me what is true? If so, I say they go back to putting the bible into latin and we can have bishops read it to us and interpret it for us.
Two big head nods from me on this. Right on Heber! I love it.I agree that the truth can stand on its own, but I also understand the protection reflex that prompts the warning. I would never tell someone not to search for truth, but obsession creeps easily into lives – and obsession can be very destructive. Some people who jump into the deep end come up swimming and stronger than before they dove; some people drown.It’s hard to tell what the outcome will be unless you dive, so I understand the instinct to prevent the jump – and I would never belittle someone who cares enough to try to stop someone they assume will drown from jumping. I prefer to jump in with them and help them learn to swim, but I can’t fault someone who’s not sure it’s possible to swim in the deep end.
I guess I would say to some extent it depends on how well they have discerned the faithful stuff they’ve read. For example, did they swallow Truman Madsen’s praise-mongering as 100% factual? If so, they may be equally susceptible to specious anti-faithful authors. If the person who is “digging” is truly able to judge fairly well, impartially, unemotionally, then I say they can and should read whatever. But everything that is written is biased toward some theory or perception. If they have a tougher time separating those viewpoints inserted by the authors, I’d stick with the most faith-neutral reading list you can, such as Rough Stone Rolling. I’d help the person learn to evaluate the authors’ (and contemporary sources’) viewpoints (whether favorable or un) each step of the way until they develop their own ability to see those perspectives.
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