What WAS Your Testimony Based On?

[Anonymous]

My testimony always has been based on the principles of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, to use Mormon-speak – largely because my mind never has fit in very well among the membership of the Church. I’ve always been a bit of an intellectual outsider, if you will.

[Anonymous]

Roy wrote:

Totally honest question for you: Is a faith crisis still possible if an individual’s testimony is built upon the right foundation AND this person does all the right things to maintain that testimony?

Yes!

Shawn, I think you’re right that it’s less likely, but no one can anticipate what life will throw at them. In any given moment, emotion alone can override everything else. That, I think, is the biggest danger to someone with a solid testimony, because it’s the most likely thing to occur. But these people are not immune to disconcerting facts, if they present themselves at just the right moment and in just the right way. And they have emotional/psychological implications – panic.

[Anonymous]

I had a visiting teacher once, who was a convert. She once told me something that I have never forgotten. She knew that the early church leaders were not perfect men. She felt like it was such a wonderful thing that these imperfect men could bring about the restoration of the gospel.

I have always been impressed with her attitude in accepting that the early church leaders had faults, but that the Gospel was still true.

I think I am learning that my crisis of faith has been based on insignificant things when you look at the whole picture. It IS difficult to have an insensitive leader—but he isn’t the Gospel. It IS difficult to have people be unkind to you at church—but they aren’t the Gospel, either. Heck, sometimes I’m still trying to separate the Gospel from “Mormon culture”—-I grew up and discovered that some of the things I had grown up believing weren’t church doctrine.

I’m learning that believing the Gospel doesn’t mean I have to be able to say “I know…..”, but, “I believe…..” I also have decided that this church is what I choose—-so now I just have to learn to take the good with the bad, and question the things I need answers to, and learn to ignore the things that the answers to don’t really matter.

I have also realized that I am not overly concerned with some of the ugly things that people talk about from the early days of the church. There were some early saints that did some really bad things, some by mistake—and some on purpose, some because of a lack of understanding. There are modern-day saints that do some really bad things—-some by mistake, some on purpose, and some because of a lack of understanding.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

My testimony always has been based on the principles of the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ, to use Mormon-speak – largely because my mind never has fit in very well among the membership of the Church. I’ve always been a bit of an intellectual outsider, if you will.

Thanks all for the great discussion everyone. This really has given me much to ponder. I think Ray has hit on something important here. I can believe in the principles and though my understanding of the principles may evolve – I don’t think that I will ever be disappointed.

For example: there is the principle/golden rule to treat others as you would want to be treated. It has been said here on StayLDS that the platinum rule is to treat others as they want to be treated. Perhaps the platinum rule might add something to the golden rule but it doesn’t make it false. The principle is true.

In this way JS has value independent of most of the details of his life if he taught true principles. In this same way the LDS church has value in as much as it teaches true principles. Much to ponder indeed. :think:

[Anonymous]

Don’t all religions teach some true principles? I understand what Roy and Ray are trying to say but I wonder at times did JS receive the priesthood as described and if so does that make what he taught true and valid? A king can make any rules he wants and unless he get murdered he will be obeyed. Does a king validate God or does God validate a king?

[Anonymous]

DBMormon wrote:

My testimony was based on the church. Now it is on Christ. The church is still true to me, just my focus has been placed where it should have been all along.

Amen, Bill. Christ is the author and finisher of our faith.

[Anonymous]

momto11 wrote:

I had a visiting teacher once, who was a convert. She once told me something that I have never forgotten. She knew that the early church leaders were not perfect men. She felt like it was such a wonderful thing that these imperfect men could bring about the restoration of the gospel.

That’s a good way to look at it. I appreciate everything you wrote, momto11. I went back and read your post about depression, medication, and addiction. Some stigma regarding those things lingers in society and misconceptions are believed and taught. I’ve been told to go for a jog when I was so depressed that all I could do is breathe. Anyway, it sounds like you’ve made some good progress. You seem more at peace now. Good to see.

[Anonymous]

church0333 wrote:

Don’t all religions teach some true principles? I understand what Roy and Ray are trying to say but I wonder at times did JS receive the priesthood as described and if so does that make what he taught true and valid? A king can make any rules he wants and unless he get murdered he will be obeyed. Does a king validate God or does God validate a king?

I think it’s been acknowledged by many church leaders that truth can come through means other than the church. Some examples are cited here.

For what it’s worth, I believe Joseph did receive the priesthood. I’m not sure it if was “as described” because there is some confusion regarding the visit from Peter, James, and John and how ordinations were done initially. However, I do believe Joseph and Oliver received the priesthood authority. So, “does that make what he taught true and valid?” I think what was revealed by God through the prophet is true and valid.

[Anonymous]

Sterling McMurrin made this comment back in the 80’s, he was a philosophy professor at the “U”, “I have never been disillusionmed by the church because I was never illusioned by it int he first place.” To me that meant not to get caught up in the so called certainties in the church. I think it is important to study our history but not to judge it. Different times require different context we have to understand the context in which things happened. For example the black and the priesthood. When the saints were in Missouri and voting in a block Missouri was wanting to become a salve state the Mormons were a stumbling block on that path. Whether or not it was a conscious decision by the brother at the time to create the new policy about the black not being able to have the priesthood I don;t know I tend t think it was more of a reaction then through the years it took on all kinds of perversions and unfortunately our African American brother and sisters had to suffer from it but with changing ideas and understanding in the greater society it became time to rectify the situation. For years the initial policy was blamed on God and Blacks themselves. In that way the general church did not have take responsibility for their bigotry. Many left the church because of that policy and I am sure there were those who left the church when it was changed as well. We cannot know Josephs mind and many things in church history don’t make sense to us some 200 years later. My great great grandmother was sealed to Joseph when she was 14 years old. I don’t understand why but I am not going to lose an sleep over it either. The problem a lot of us face is that we come in contact with members of the church you have their heads in the sand and do not want to listen to anything negative because it destroys the illusion. I once had a lengthy discussion with a BYU student who refused to believe that the BYU science department offered any classes in Evolution. It is just to easy to label those who have different ideas than us as sinners. Remember when Joseph sent Oliver and others to Canada to sale the BofM copyright. It was by revaluation, they were unsuccessful and very discouraged feeling they had let the Lord and Joseph down, Joseph then stated, “Some revelations are from God, dome form man and some fomr the Satan.” God bless you all on your journey!

[Anonymous]

church0333 wrote:

Don’t all religions teach some true principles? I understand what Roy and Ray are trying to say but I wonder at times did JS receive the priesthood as described and if so does that make what he taught true and valid? A king can make any rules he wants and unless he get murdered he will be obeyed. Does a king validate God or does God validate a king?

As I understand the original conversation a testimony that is based upon the “wrong” things is one that can be undercut by science and/or historical discovery. I only submit that many of the common assumptions of a traditional LDS testimony are vulnerable to both. I believe that the church organization regularly promotes just this type of testimony. I also believe that there are many that are concerned with the trend of shattered testimonies and are trying to help through a process that might be called “inoculation” that encompasses the JS papers and other efforts.

[Anonymous]

I’ve been giving this topic a lot of thought. My testimony WAS based on a sense of certainty in the origins of the church and especially the origins of the Book of Mormon.

I have lost those confidences.

When I think about it though, I agree that some people can know the same things and not have a faith crisis. I think I was already aware of things like treasure digging, multiple first vision accounts and DNA evidence and it didn’t bother me.

But once I went to dig into it again it did bother me deeply. But I’m aware that if I’m honest I was in a situation of some dissatisfaction at time of opening pandora’s box fully. I had (and have) every intention of staying there, but I wasn’t participating with the full delight had once had. I won’t go into the details. I don’t think anyone makes any major change in life (work/marriage/church/etc) when everything is going fine. Something needs to provide some sort of disruption. Just my perspective on it. Preach my gospel does not tell Elders to seek out the stable and comfortable. The seek those who are either experiencing change or wishing for one.

[Anonymous]

Further to the post about why people change, preach my gospel has some interesting points about reaching out to people in a ‘willing to change’ frame of mind:

Quote:

Encourage them to visit acquaintances who have recently experienced a life-changing event (birth, death in the family, marriage, or recently moved). (Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service, How Do I Find People to Teach?)

This sounds more sinister than I think it is intended to. It’s also one of about 20 different ‘finding’ suggestions, so isn’t simply saying they should prey on the vulnerable.

People’s frame of mind is often open to change when they convert, even though they might not know it.

Quote:

They often do not realize that they are looking for the restored gospel until they have found it. For example, one convert said, “When I heard the gospel, it filled a hole in my heart that I didn’t know was there.” Another said, “I have finished the search I didn’t know I was on.” (Preach My Gospel: A Guide to Missionary Service, How Do I Find People to Teach?)

I think it’s the same with us. Just as a non-member can hear the same testimony or promises and feel/do nothing, members can work the other way. If members are entirely content and comfortable at church then there’s no incentive to let the information sink in and cause a change.

[Anonymous]

I’ll be honest. I’ve don’t think I have ever had a testimony.

[Anonymous]

There seems to be a few on this site who have experienced a crisis of faith. These crisis seem to be tied to Joseph Smith and church history. There are a lot of Christians out there who also experience a crisis in faith when it comes to the early history of the christian church and the compilation of the New Testament etc. Not to mention the whole conflict of how can a loving God allow the atrocities that occur every day in the word. I was reading in the Gospel of Thomas recently and wanted to share this, “(2) Jesus said, “Let one who seeks not stop seeking until that person finds; and upon finding, the person will be disturbed; and being disturbed, will be astounded; and will reign over the entirety.” Maybe this applies, as TS Eliott put it, “We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.”

[Anonymous]

Clay wrote:

There seems to be a few on this site who have experienced a crisis of faith. These crisis seem to be tied to Joseph Smith and church history. There are a lot of Christians out there who also experience a crisis in faith when it comes to the early history of the christian church and the compilation of the New Testament etc. Not to mention the whole conflict of how can a loving God allow the atrocities that occur every day in the word. I was reading in the Gospel of Thomas recently and wanted to share this, “(2) Jesus said, “Let one who seeks not stop seeking until that person finds; and upon finding, the person will be disturbed; and being disturbed, will be astounded; and will reign over the entirety.” Maybe this applies, as TS Eliott put it, “We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.”

Thanks for these thoughts Clay!

[Author]

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