- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
wl44 wrote:
What would I say to God if he asked me why I did not accept the teachings of the LDS church?
I can’t imagine He would need to ask, all things are already known by God. I consider the idea of a formal “Judgement” as a creation of men long long ago. The idea can be helpful to remind us that our actions do carry natural consequences, but by the time we “meet our maker” I imagine all forms of judging will already be completed. I can only imagine a child running into his fathers arms after an extended absence. The reunion does not change the path the child has prepared for himself, for good or bad the child will direct his own way.
wl44 wrote:…I am persuaded to believe that the Church has in many instances failed You. For example, …
This sounds like an exercise of taking responsibility for your own beliefs, which is good and necessary. After you feel like you have full ownership of what exists in your head and heart, then I think the next step is as Ray suggests begin to build a new relationship with goodness, truth, and how people relate to it in terms of God. I see this as a path of progress but ultimately whether you feel frustrated or uplifted in the way you travel is up to you.
Old-Timer wrote:wl44, I’m going to say this as gently and kindly as I can, but I’m also going to say it directly. I hope it comes across on the screen the way I mean it:
If that is what you would say to God when you meet him, I think you need to focus away from the LDS Church for a while (not leave, necessarily, but change focus) and start working primarily on building your own faith and relationship with God – separate from institutional issues. If God exists, and if they are loving parents, I think those concerns would be second or third or twentieth in importance to them. I think they would be happy to answer those questions, but I think they wouldn’t want them to be the first things out of their children’s mouths when they had a chance to sit down and talk.
Now, if those questions still are paramount when you die, I’m sure God will be glad to listen – but, largely because of my unorthodox view of judgment, I tend to think there is lots and lots of time to get to them. More than anything else, when I see my own dad again, I want a hug and a smile. We can talk about “stuff” eventually.
Hey Ray, thanks for your reply. You bring up some excellent points that I feel I failed to consider. To clarify, my post was in response to a hypothetical question that I use to guide my thinking. I agree with you, my understanding of God would lead me to believe that such a series of questions would not be asked until after a lengthy discussion about other more important topics, if it is asked at all. I must admit, however, that I don’t see your view being advocated by the general leadership of the church or by the more orthodox members of the church, regardless of how wonderful your view is. I think the idea of judgement as taught in the Book of Mormon and by latter-day prophets (and as hinted at in the Temple Recommend interview) would include a serious evaluation of one’s acceptance of these events of the restoration. My concerns are admittedly petty in light of the attributes of God that you know of and understand, but my question was not posed in light of anyone in particular’s beliefs. I would love it if the teachings of the Church were more in line with your beliefs. My objective in answering the question was to see for myself if my concerns are legitimate in light of what the LDS church officially teaches. If I can’t articulate a well-reasoned argument for why I feel the way that I do, then I really don’t have any justification for feeling the way that I do. Are my concerns legitimate? I think so, but I don’t know for sure; they could very well be foolish.
I also appreciated your counsel to focus on my faith and relationship with God. I shy away from making a conclusive statement as to the existence of God, but I admit that I have had experiences that lead me to believe that He exists. I have found myself having a greater desire to focus on the simple teachings of the Savior regarding loving and serving others.
Let me also apologize for any offense I may have given to anyone. I guess I struggle a bit in articulating my thoughts. I can assure my tone when writing was one of dismay and perplexity and not contempt.
No offense, at all. None. Quote:I must admit, however, that I don’t see your view being advocated by the general leadership of the church or by the more orthodox members of the church.
Yeah, I know.
I don’t claim to be right about any of this – or pretty much anything at all, when it comes to life after mortality. It’s just what makes sense to my mind and resonates with my heart right now.
Roy wrote:I believe that there are major differences based on how we perceive God and our relationship to him.
Do we have a contractual relationship or a familial relationship? Are we there as a homecoming or to enforce the terms of the contract?
… I also believe that there is support for multiple perspectives on this in the church…
Roy, I hope you don’t mind me selecting parts of your post. I think you are quite right that our approach may depend on our perceived relationship to Him. I really liked this post and the one before it where you said you’d run up to him like your father after your mission. It made me think about whether I would and I come to the conclusion that while I would be excited to finally see Him I’d be fearful at the same time. Part of that is because I truly consider myself to be a sinner but also because sometimes the scriptures and even modern day prophets portray him as somewhat arbitrary or capricious.
For example, during my mission we had a member of the 70 tell us that we should never pray without a shirt and tie. The idea of approaching “the most powerful being in the universe” in pajamas was appalling to him. Likewise in the temple Heavenly Father is portrayed as more of a command figure. While I realize the temple is highly symbolic, it just seems to me that a loving Heavenly Father may be a 19th or 20th century interpretation. While I have no hard statistics to support this: my own reading of the BoM and D&C seem to point more towards a being inclined to reprimand. As a side note it would be interesting to compare the # of verses with “I am well pleased” with the # of verses with “my servant ABC hath need of repentance.”
If I were fortunate enough see Roy’s reunion and be next in line I’d observe the interaction and base my reunion on Roy’s. I’d really like to think I could run to Him and say “I’ve tried” but honestly I’d probably be nervous and fearful. I’m tearing up thinking about this because I wish I knew what to believe.
Roadrunner wrote:Roy wrote:I believe that there are major differences based on how we perceive God and our relationship to him.
Do we have a contractual relationship or a familial relationship? Are we there as a homecoming or to enforce the terms of the contract?
… I also believe that there is support for multiple perspectives on this in the church…
Roy, I hope you don’t mind me selecting parts of your post. I think you are quite right that our approach may depend on our perceived relationship to Him. I really liked this post and the one before it where you said you’d run up to him like your father after your mission. It made me think about whether I would and I come to the conclusion that while I would be excited to finally see Him I’d be fearful at the same time. Part of that is because I truly consider myself to be a sinner but also because sometimes the scriptures and even modern day prophets portray him as somewhat arbitrary or capricious.
For example, during my mission we had a member of the 70 tell us that we should never pray without a shirt and tie. The idea of approaching “the most powerful being in the universe” in pajamas was appalling to him. Likewise in the temple Heavenly Father is portrayed as more of a command figure. While I realize the temple is highly symbolic, it just seems to me that a loving Heavenly Father may be a 19th or 20th century interpretation. While I have no hard statistics to support this: my own reading of the BoM and D&C seem to point more towards a being inclined to reprimand. As a side note it would be interesting to compare the # of verses with “I am well pleased” with the # of verses with “my servant ABC hath need of repentance.”
If I were fortunate enough see Roy’s reunion and be next in line I’d observe the interaction and base my reunion on Roy’s. I’d really like to think I could run to Him and say “I’ve tried” but honestly I’d probably be nervous and fearful. I’m tearing up thinking about this because I wish I knew what to believe.
I agree. I believe that my understanding of my relationship to God is not founded in Mormonism. All the pieces are there in Mormonism- He is literally our father, who knows how to give good gifts to his children – but the emphasis is towards securing his favor. Through my personal experience (that I believe to have been personal revelation but might have also been my subconscious giving me the answer that I desperately needed at the time) I have come to the understanding that I always had God’s favor. It was with me before I had any accomplishments, and it remains with me after miserable failures. Yes, I am a sinner – I just believe that my HF accepts me as I am. Many Christian churches use JC as the great mediator between a God that can’t tolerate sin and fallen mankind. I somewhat like the Trinitarian idea because it opens the possibility that God himself came to rescue me – not to send a mediator or a volunteer/champion, but to come himself. Maybe the entire concept of the Atonement is just a mechanism that allows us to forgive ourselves (and ultimately our fellow flawed mortals).
You could probably quote dozens of scriptures that paint a different picture of God. The Lectures on Faith say that to understand God as unwavering is the only way to summon sufficient faith to make the incredible sacrifices that He might ask of you and then only after making these sacrifices can you approach God with confidence to collect on His promises (after all- the Lord is bound when you do what he says but only after “all that you can do”).
That is one way to approach God and it might be the most successful way for lots of people, but it is no longer MY way. And so I discount the many scriptures that paint God as something different than my experience and chalk it up to other’s perceptions of my Father. Surely, He is a multifaceted being and others may very well be correct in their perceptions – that still does not invalidate MY relationship with him. I oversee a staff of over 100 and I use different techniques to motivate them, but I am at my most genuine when I am with MY children.
It is also possible that there is nothing after this life. If I were to select a system of belief purely based on its effectiveness in this life and its ability to help me find my best self in the here and now, I believe that I would still choose a love and acceptance based belief. Partly because this approach speaks to my personality and personal experience and partly because it is inspiring. (“because I have been given much, I too must give”, “I feel my savior’s love” “no influence aught to be maintained in the priesthood except by….love unfeigned.” “Greater love has no man than this…”, “For God so loved the world…”, “not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind”)
I just don’t want to act out of fear. I feel that even if fear led me to do the right thing – to act out of fear would represent the deeper surrender. This all makes sense in my mind and heart…even if it doesn’t translate well to the outside world. I feel that I am being true to myself and to my God.
Old-Timer wrote:Also, just so you know, I personally don’t believe in a “Judgment Day” – where each person stands before a judge in a court room and hears a verdict about their life. I believe “The Final Judgment” is nothing more than the natural end of our progression and growth – that point where we no longer learn and grow. I also believe that point is FAR further out into the future than most people assume, and I think FAR more people reach “godhood” or “perfection” (a state of wholeness, completion and full development) than most people assume.
I think God’s grace, mercy and charity (
long-suffering patience, especially) are as universal and expansive as is possible, and I think lots of people will be shocked in the end as they look around and finally realize they aren’t as “elect” as they thought they were.
:thumbup: I agree! And I like how you put it, Ray, especially about how God is far more loving than most have been led to believe.Judgement day is every day I judge/think. “The kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you.”
Every day, I see how I’ve screwed up & I’m beginning to realize how I’ve beat myself up for things that God probably smiles at, as a loving parent or teacher smiles when a child freaks out when they goof up. In particular, I have been educating myself about common cognitive distortions and life traps so I can catch myself in them & prevent downward emotional spirals.
Featherina wrote:Old-Timer wrote:I believe “The Final Judgment” is nothing more than the natural end of our progression and growth – that point where we no longer learn and grow.
:thumbup: I agree! And I like how you put it, Ray, especially about how God is far more loving than most have been led to believe.Judgement day is every day I judge/think. “The kingdom (realm/experience) of God is within you.”
Every day, I see how I’ve screwed up & I’m beginning to realize how I’ve beat myself up for things that God probably smiles at, as a loving parent or teacher smiles when a child freaks out when they goof up.
I like that image Featherina, and I agree that we judge/condemn ourselves while God would lift us from our own condemnation.
I view the end of progression/growth/learning as the beginning of damnation/hell so maybe I could adapt the idea of judgment at the end of progression to apply at a topic by topic level, and by no means suggests the topic “completion” is final and beyond revisiting.
w144: Your thought experiment reminds me of a discussion from a couple years ago on another thread, and a story that I shared there from a book I have called A Thoughtful Faith. Here’s a link: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1079&p=12251&hilit=near+death+experience%2C+a+thoughtful+faith#p12251 The author has an NDE that is essentially as you are describing. He meets his dead grandmother and tries to talk to her about his issues with the church, but his real thoughts (not the “well-reasoned” arguments he has come up with) are all he can say because what matters isn’t what he thinks or his justifications, but simply who he has become. To me, this is the most important argument for why to stay LDS or to not stay LDS. Are you becoming a better person? Some people probably do need to step away as Ray has said to clear their heads. Others would do better to stay and figure out why it’s so hard for them.
hawkgrrrl wrote:To me, this is the most important argument for why to stay LDS or to not stay LDS. Are you becoming a better person?
Hawkgrrrl,
This is a great point and it really hits home for me. The argument “the LDS church has made me a good man” is the same reasoning my wife uses to tell me I’m where I should be and it’s difficult to argue with. I must admit that I’d probably be in a much worse place socially, educationally, morally, etc than I would otherwise be outside the church. BUT… (for myself) I’ve concluded that I never gave the other path a chance. As a teenager I was uber-righteous and trusted my church leaders far too much.
hawkgrrrl wrote:w144: Your thought experiment reminds me of a discussion from a couple years ago on another thread, and a story that I shared there from a book I have called A Thoughtful Faith. Here’s a link:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1079&p=12251&hilit=near+death+experience%2C+a+thoughtful+faith#p12251 The author has an NDE that is essentially as you are describing. He meets his dead grandmother and tries to talk to her about his issues with the church, but his real thoughts (not the “well-reasoned” arguments he has come up with) are all he can say because what matters isn’t what he thinks or his justifications, but simply who he has become. To me, this is the most important argument for why to stay LDS or to not stay LDS. Are you becoming a better person? Some people probably do need to step away as Ray has said to clear their heads. Others would do better to stay and figure out why it’s so hard for them.
Great connection Hawkgrrrl! I also find analogies from other cultures and religions. From the book “Diety and Dying” comes the following:
Quote:when two angels come to the dead man and cause him to sit up, and say to him, “Who is the Lord?” He replies, “My Lord is God.” Then they say, “What is thy religion?” He says, “Islam.” Then they say, “What is this man who is sent to you?” (i.e. the Prophet [Mohammad]) He says, “He is the Prophet of God.” Then they say,”What is your proof of his mission?” He says, “I read the book of God and believed in it, and I proved it to be true.”
Then a voice calls out from the celestial regions, “my servant hath spoken true, therefore…Paradise.”
Later in the same document it is the turn of the”infidel”…
Quote:“Who is thy Lord?” He says, “Alas! Alas! I do now know.” Then they say, “What is thy religion?” He says, Alas, alas! I do not know.” And then they say to him, “What is the condition of the man who is sent down to you?” He says, “Alas, alas! I do not know.”Then a voice comes from above saying, “He lieth; therefore…hell.”
In both scenarios there doesn’t seem to be much tolerance for excuses, but what does appear to be the deciding factor can vary wildly. I can’t look at these situations without noticing the opinions and influences of others. When I imagine communing with my God I try as much as possible to not make it about others. My God is and I am. I believe that the orbit that ties us together is one of love and acceptance.
:angel: As a pantheist, this question is moot… meaningless. I do this every day…talk to the gods…literally…as far as my religious beliefs are concerned.
LITERALLY.
I don’t believe in heavenly parents.
I don’t think pantheism and Mormonism are compatible btw. It really didn’t/isn’t working for me.
I really don’t see anyway to follow a middle way between these two belief systems. Though I know wayfarer would probably disagree.
Like some have said on this thread…sometimes Mormonism does more harm than good to an individual.
I have to stay somewhat in the church for family reasons, which is why I still believe in the mission of this site. This site helps me temper and practice my Mormon interactions and dialogue so I don’t harm family relationship any more than need be.
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Mormonism, is that really the best you could come up with? Cadence wrote:Mormonism, is that really the best you could come up with?
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
Quote:Mormonism, is that really the best you could come up with?
I haven’t found anything that works better for me, especially when cultural / organizational / church-specific stuff is removed and only the theology and accompanying concepts and principles are considered – and even more so when dealing within Christianity. Add in the concepts of seeking learning out of the best books, studying things out in our hearts and minds, openness to truth no matter the source, seeking after everything that is virtuous, lovely, of good report and/or praiseworthy, etc., and I haven’t found anything better in all my decades of studying just about everything imaginable.
That ideal / pure “Mormonism” gets clouded too easily by other stuff, but it is transcendent to me.
It largely depends on what version of “Mormonism” you mean. I think I understand Mormonism. At least in so far as I can in my weakness and limited view. If Mormonism, as I perceive it, is true then when I meet God I would ask him to give me a moment to turn and welcome the majority of the human family to the same place.
– I will revel and celebrate in the diversity that brought each of us to the same point.
– I will thank the Taoists for their wisdom and congratulate the Atheists for their independently created moral compass.
– I will express appreciation to the Pagans and Humanists for their respect for the planet and its inhabitants
Etc etc
– I will thank many of the Mormon prophets of the past for teaching me the scope of eternity and the importance of finding my independent self
If on the other hand it turns out that the strict Mormonism of temple recommends, 100% HT and obedience is the only way to reach the highest degree of living with God then I will feel a bit surprised and then turn away and find out what’s in store for the 99.9% of humanity that were given other vehicles by God to travel the path of eternities.
I sometimes share the fear of the OP, that I’m unravelling the one true way to exaltation. That I’m sullying the pearl of great price. But then I read the many quotes from our leaders that say Mormonism isn’t God’s only instrument. The evidence for Mormonism being the only way for all of humanity pales in comparison to the evidence that it is not.
It may be the only one for me, for now. But I don’t believe for a moment that it is the only way for everyone.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.