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This is a great thread. I appreciated your post shoshin. DJ, yes, feel free to share the story.
On Own Now wrote:Great post, shoshin. I was particularly struck by this:
shoshin wrote:In general I have to think that whatever nourishes faith and understanding of the gospel would be a good thing. But it has to be in way that is meaningful to people. So that’s the question, isn’t it. I get that nourishment from the scriptures and from going to church. But maybe that doesn’t work for everyone right now.
I think this is a good basis for what DJ is trying to get at… how to make the Church experience something that is ‘meaningful’… something that ‘works’ for people like us, and something that we want to experience.IMO, there are times when I can gain nourishment from the LDS Church. But it’s not as much as it should be. 95% of Church, for me, is drudgery. Announcements that sound like we are attending the Treasury meeting of a local Sausage Makers Guild. Hymns sung as if at a funeral. Talks about obeying.
Then there is the emotionless act of the Sacrament/Communion/Lord’s Supper. This should be the crowning moment of our worship on the Lord’s Day, but we introduce it with the smallest amount of heart possible:
“We will now prepare for the Sacrament by singing hymn #180, Father in Heaven, We Do Believe, after which the Sacrament will be administered by the Aaronic Priesthood”. zzzzzzzz.
DJ, I completely agree that this is isn’t the first step, but I would appreciate it if we could eventually get to a place in the Church where any non-member or StayLDSer could feel like they are worshiping when they attend one of our Sacrament Meetings. Currently, it is a Herculean struggle for me to do that, and when I’m able, it is because of what I bring into the meeting myself, and not what the meeting provides for me.
That line stuck out to me, too, Shoshin. I see it as more of a pressure to conform and perform that some people perceive (and is actual in many cases).
OON, I agree – especially about the hymn being like funeral dirges and talks about fringe topics that don’t really focus on Christ. I think the sacrament can be what you make it, though – I like to ponder during that time, but meditation would actually probably be difficult. I have heard non-members comment about how our worship services are like business meetings, and I get where they’re coming from. We’re certainly a long way from an evangelical Pentecostal service, but I’m not especially comfortable there, either. Still, I agree we could do better – but beyond some basics (focusing more on Christ, for instance) it’s probably beyond the scope of what a bishop is willing to do – it is somewhat cultural.
Old-Timer wrote:One very concrete “action” piece of advice about which I feel strongly:
If a church leader has the chance to sit down for the first time with someone who is inactive or struggling, go alone to the person’s home – NOT as a Bishopric or even a companionship, and not in the church office. When you get there,
DO. NOT. TRY. TO. SOLVE. THE. PROBLEM. OR. EVEN. OFFER. ADVICE.Yeah, I feel strongly about that. So:
Sit down, shut up and listen.
Ask questions only to understand better. Leave having not done or said a single thing that implies the person needs to return to activity if s/he wants to associate with you or any other member.
The principles are, “Seek to understand before seeking to be understood,” and, “We love him, because he first loved us.”
We can’t really love someone, in any way that is individually meaningful, until we understand them – and understanding people involves the ears FAR more than the mouth. We might not be able to understand them or their situation fully, but we can try to understand them as well as we can.
So, again:
Sit down, shut up and listen.I’m with you there, Ray. Actually I have to say that my two rescue visits (bishop and HPGL) were like that, they didn’t argue, try to change my mind, etc., and they did mostly listen. What they didn’t do was any kind of follow up. Granted I didn’t want to be bugged, but the bishop asked if he could stop by once in a while and I consented – but he never did.
I like the We love him… thing – that’s always been one of my favorite scripture and I’m going to use it, thanks for reminding me.
hawkgrrrl wrote:
– Don’t police people’s thoughts and opinions. Let people say and think what is authentic to them. But be sure that all viewpoints are represented.– No science or gay bashing. No allowing of these things.
– Careful with allowing people to conflate the gospel with their political views to the point that others in the room get the impression that only one viewpoint is allowed.
I gotta say that with the possible exception of the first one, our area doesn’t seem to do to badly on these. Mind you, we have an active TR holding lesbian in our ward and we also have a major university in the stake with lots of professor type members (especially in one ward). We also have a fair number of people who identify themselves with more liberal politics.I think the first one can be sticky, though – I think many more orthodox members are easily offended by expression of thoughts that don’t fit the orthodox viewpoint (I’ll use 1 set of earrings as not doctrine as an example).
Ann wrote:DarkJedi wrote:I think I will probably say something along the line of not everyone necessarily wanting to be rescued, or perhaps just not ready to be rescued yet. And I will certainly hit on the idea that most who are in a position to be rescued don’t want to be part of a program or have an assigned friend – although a real friend who chooses to be a friend of his or her own accord is usually more than welcome.
I just spent some time with a friend who is divorced and raising a mentally disabled child. She probably wouldn’t mind being part of a program; she’s well-aware that visiting teaching IS being assigned a friend. She would just like it to be a considerate friend. When she explains for the fifth time that an impromptu ringing of her doorbell by home/visiting teachers (after she’s worked all day and settled her child down for the night) is NOT welcome – and they keep doing it anyway – she concludes that they aren’t so very interested in her. Home/visiting teaching isn’t ever perfect, she knows that – but she would be much more willing to meet them halfway if she sensed that they were really listening to her.
Good point, Ann, because while there are those of us who don’t/didn’t want to be rescued there are legitimately people out there for whom the programs were designed and where there is success. I guess we have to go with a follow the spirit kind of thing when deciding who to approach.
FWIW, I don’t see HT/VT as assigned friends. I see them as ministers, and while it helps if ministers are friendly and actually concerned, I see it as more of an assignment of service (if done properly).
Perhaps if your friend doesn’t answer the door when they ring at times she has asked them not to, they might get the hint? I’d probably try to figure out a way to temporarily disconnect the doorbell.
Dark Jedi, For me, please consider telling them:
(1) I’m a person not a project. I don’t need to be saved (by any human), I need to be loved. Just love me.
(2) The key word is Empathy not sympathy. I don’t need you to feel sorry for me. I need you to put yourself in my shoes.
(3) Stop pretending like checking the church boxes will make life wonderful. When reality kicks in and life gets inexplicably hard, we just end up feeling like failures. Don’t give me formulas for fixing things or pontificate bad theodicy. Just sit with me in my grief and frustration until I’m ready to move on.
(4) Don’t be an apologist for the church or feel like you need to defend God. You don’t have to explain or defend anything. You just have to listen.
(5) If you can’t honestly look in the mirror and feel like you are ready to be the person described above, humble and heal yourself before knocking on my door because you might end up doing more harm than good.
* Just because someone leaves the church doesn’t mean they are sinning in a major way or are addicted to pornography * There’s a huge difference between doctrine and tradition, and most things are tradition
* It’s not the bishop’s job to be an expert in doctrine, leave that to the individual members
This
>mercyngrace wrote:Dark Jedi,
For me, please consider telling them:
(1) I’m a person not a project. I don’t need to be saved (by any human), I need to be loved. Just love me.
(2) The key word is Empathy not sympathy. I don’t need you to feel sorry for me. I need you to put yourself in my shoes.
(3) Stop pretending like checking the church boxes will make life wonderful. When reality kicks in and life gets inexplicably hard, we just end up feeling like failures. Don’t give me formulas for fixing things or pontificate bad theodicy. Just sit with me in my grief and frustration until I’m ready to move on.
(4) Don’t be an apologist for the church or feel like you need to defend God. You don’t have to explain or defend anything. You just have to listen.
(5) If you can’t honestly look in the mirror and feel like you are ready to be the person described above, humble and heal yourself before knocking on my door because you might end up doing more harm than good.
Keyword here is empathy. The good news is that physiologist have learned that it can be learned or self trained.
It just requires experience and willingness and practice to put ourself into others shoes. The more a person does it the better the brain exercises it.
There’s a problem though. If a person is steeped in tradition that is counter intuitive to empathy by nature you don’t experience or practice putting yourself into tradition or orthodoxy that isn’t yours. Why, because it’s threatening, security and social status and placement and briefs are threatened.
That’s the rub, to find members who have practiced and experienced empathy. It’s the hardest thing to do when a person is steeped in orthodoxy and tradition because it’s so linked to the feeling of security and the feeling of safety and beliefs to get the security and safety.
The problem with NF and NT(not that it’s a real problem) as far as the church is concerned is that it fits a category of people that are not readily wanting to be just like when we were children, dependent upon parents whose rules we followed in exchange for love, safety and Oreos, we now trade our obedience and autonomy for a feeling of security, certainty. It doesn’t translate well to NF and NT. Mostly because NT realize that the works and universe is a works of uncertainty. NF try to make the world a safer place I light of uncertainty and problems a partial embracing of uncertainty while trying to counteract it and the uncertain bad things that can happen no matter what rules, rituals or obedience you follow. But NT fully acknowledge there can be no promise of certainty, it’s just all an illusion for them and thatching change with testimony, the evidence is just to overwhelming for them to ignore. Even for Oreos.
Many can go forward with some type of faith, but certainty and promises or rewards do not factor in, or at least nearly as much.
Or most importantly, the service value I go by—
Quote:Never worry about numbers. Help one person at a time and always start with the person nearest you
― Mother Teresa
I think she set an example there, where we miss the mark usually in church.
Last of all I just wanted to say thank you DJ. Really. I know it is not easy being in this position. I appreciate the courage it takes to stand for what you believe in even if it’s not easy.
I second all the great suggestions here. I spent the day thinking how I would present the information, because I would be addressing an entrenched group I would begin by discussing Christs instructions in 3 Nephi 18. There are particular verses about not everyone needs to be a believer to attend or participate in the worship service. Then I would use the recent BYU article about Doubt, and the Ensign or LDS living article on the same issue. From there I would explain the specifics. DJ – I am not suggesting you do this, I just needed to put it out into the ether for my own brain. If I didn’t let it out I’d explode. DJ – Thank you for doing this for all of us. You have my prayers and good thoughts for success.
DJ, I’ve been following your recent posts lately about the calling and role that you have been given — how awesome that your stake president recognizes that need for this! That is so COOL!! Reading through your posts the last six months or so when I joined this forum, I must also say they have the right person for the job. You were one of the first who welcomed me here and helped me know that I wasn’t a freak for having the experiences and thoughts I was having.
There’s already been much good advice posted here from people who know, so I feel I have little to add. Still, I’ll put in a plug for two things that I wish people would do that you might convey to ward leadership. The first is simply to listen to us without immediately going into “fix it” mode. Our thoughts and feelings ARE valid and need to be understood with empathy. The second is to embrace diversity and I think the talks given by Elder Uchtdorf recently point out that there is a place for all. The church is not/should not be “The Borg” (Star Trek Next Generation reference) where we assimilate people into the collective, but rather try to honor and respect all.
You could use the scriptures from the story of Job. When he is going through this horrible experience and his heart must have been aching, what do his real friends do? They go and sit with him in silence without judging him or criticizing him. Nothing they say will make it better. So they just support him by just being there. I really do appreciate your comments here, and I look forward to meeting with a bishopric this weekend. Please understand that it is their meeting to which I am an invited guest, and in the interest of preserving my position and being able to do more good for longer, I simply can’t share some of the more radical ideas or things that apply to the church in general and are beyond the control of the local leadership, even when I agree with them. I’m really hearing the following here, and this is what I will try to share: 1. Listen
2. Don’t judge
3. Listen
4. Don’t preach/testify/call to repentance
5. Listen
6. Don’t try to “fix” them
7. Listen
8. Don’t make them a project
9. Listen
10. Don’t assign friends (but be one)
11. Listen
12. Most of all, listen
Tim wrote:You could use the scriptures from the story of Job. When he is going through this horrible experience and his heart must have been aching, what do his real friends do? They go and sit with him in silence without judging him or criticizing him. Nothing they say will make it better. So they just support him by just being there.
Good idea, Tim, thanks. I see the story of Job as purely fictional, but the message is good and Mormons like scripture.
Yes, excellent suggestion, Tim. This probably won’t work, but it’s worth a try: What if we consider that a person who has come to question or even reject his or her literal faith is someone who has progressed to a higher spiritual plane than those who require literalism?
Alma 12:9 suggests that the Church teaches “the lesser portion of His word”. Jesus taught in parables and metaphors, and to the audience of the Gospel of John, literalism was a live and well. Literalism is the “milk”. At some point, we outgrow it, and realize that universal, unconditional love is far more important than believing in some literal aspect of church history or doctrine.
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