What’s My Line?

[Anonymous]

I used to hold the leaders at the top, and the historical leaders, and even many of the local leaders to a really, really high standard because a) they expect so much of me personally due to their truth claims and b) the truth claims are very “extreme” [one true church, prophet who speaks to God, will never lead us astray, no celestial kingdom without temple worthiness, have required really big sacrifices, never say ‘no” to a calling, blessings predicated on righteousness and obedience etc].

So, I felt that if they are going to make those kinds of claims, then they better be walking the talk. And that means, yes, calling people to office who God inspires them to call, and who presumably, with the millions of people available, are up for the job. If they don’t walk the talk, this besmirches their own claims to the truth.

Walking the talk means living our values and our mission, sometimes at the expense of the church’s short-term temporal self-interest. And it means showing uncommon deference to members who are consistently faithful and who have needs that are consistent with the mission of the church. It also means holding the church, as an institution, to the same standards of honesty and virtue that is consistent with its origins.

Sadly, they have fallen down on most of these imperatives in my lifetime. And I have found peace in lessening my commitment and being agnostic about their truth claims. So, on one hand, I find it easier to accept the leaders and all their warts now, but this comes at the expense of my overall commitment. I found it easier to give cadillac service to a cadlillac organization. But now, I give Corrolla commitment to what I perceive to be a Corrolla organization. I consider it like any other organization.

The thing that confuses me the most is the litmus test of truth (as far as the church and many people in multiple religions). The feeling of the Spirit. I am not living all the commandments like I am supposed to right now (tithing, for example, TR-holding), yet when I prepare for lessons at church, or teach them, I have the Spirit with me.

But so do others in religions that are clearly false. The Book “When Mormons Doubt” provides testimonies of people who testified the People’s Temple and other clearly false religions were true due to the Spirit. So I can’t even rely entirely on that to shore up the gap I see between church leader behavior and their truth claims/expectations of me and the members at large.

[Anonymous]

Great post, Heber. A lot of thoughtful comments that are very helpful to me.

Heber13 wrote:

Judging them to be true prophets or false prophets is what it is all about. That is the testimony or faith we work through. Do we trust they bring us knowledge and truth from heaven, or are they wolves in sheep’s clothing?

This has me a little confused. This sounds pretty black & white, but I don’t think that’s what you are trying to say. With your example later on of picking apples, you had good and bad fruit from the same tree. So if I understand you correctly, a prophet can bring forth good and bad fruit, and you just have to decide what is good and discard the bad? The bad fruit doesn’t invalidate all the good fruit that comes forth. That makes sense to me.

Heber13 wrote:

For me, the line has moved back and forth as I gain more experience in life, and more knowledge of things. I do not need to cling to a fixed line that if crossed must only lead to the choice of rejecting. Because my end goal is not to measure the prophet. My end goal is to find god and seek his truth, and the prophets are voices in my journey to be happy. They are one data point to be considered in finding truth.

I like this – that there isn’t a fixed line and prophet’s voices are just data points to be considered in finding God and seeking truth. Unfortunately, I don’t think this is the message we get from the Church.

Heber13 wrote:

Trusting them requires some evaluation of their character, their intentions, their integrity. So I cannot ignore mistakes that happen. But I cannot only judge by imperfection. I can trust the imperfect person, with hesitance and skepticism, but trust nonetheless. Truly cafeteria style.

Beautiful. I agree that it really comes down to trusting in an imperfect person.

FaithfulSkeptic wrote:

Quote:

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

That’s pretty black & white – I think there are both good and bad fruits that have come from JS, BY, and the current Q15.

Heber13 wrote:

I see some inconsistency in what you say here, FS. Maybe you can clarify for me.

Scriptures do seem to suggest black and white thinking…good or evil fruit. But they cannot be literal in meaning, because I know of no one claiming to be prophet that is all good, or all bad. You even mention that in your next statement as you see that in JS, BY and the current Q15.

So…if you can see that JS is not all bad fruit…how can you judge them? Is it really so black and white?

Yes, I see the inconsistency between what Jesus said (seems pretty black and white about good and evil fruit) and what I observe in life (good and bad fruit in everyone, and no one is perfect).

Heber13 wrote:

To me…it seems like the fruit has to be “good enough” for you to consider it good fruit…even if you know that literally means it is some good and some bad…because there is no perfectly good fruit from anyone.

Yes! We have to consider both the good and bad fruit and then decide if it is “good enough.” Or just take what is good and throw away the bad. Even within a single apple, it may be mostly good, but have a bad spot that you could just cut away instead of throwing away the entire apple.

I love your example of picking apples and I think it really relates well to the good and bad fruit that all of us have (including prophets and the current Q12).

Heber13 wrote:

For me, I accept it is a good fruit tree when there is enough good fruit on it that I can make some apple crisp (my favorite) and I don’t have bad experiences of every bite leads to bad fruit and bugs and gross stuff. After a while, I just start to trust the good fruit is there based on my experience of eating it…and when the bad stuff is found…I cut it out and reject it…and stick to the good fruit. I would be dumb to keep eating the bad fruit…if I constantly had bad fruit I would reject it and stop eating it, even if I kept trying to be hopeful and positive…at some point…it is just bad stuff.

Is the fruit of Joseph Smith’s prophetic mission good enough? Or is it all so tainted it is not worth tasting even one apple, for fear it is too great of chance it will lead to eating worms?

That is the million dollar question! And that is what I’m struggling with so much. I feel like I’ve led a pretty sheltered life. I’ve grown up eating good apples from the orchard of the Church my whole life. I’ve occasionally had a wormy apple, but these are few and far between because there has been so much care to spray the trees and remove any bad apples that might be there. Well, lately that’s changed for me. I’ve been discovering more and more bad apples. And looking back on my life, I now see that there were plenty of bad apples on the trees, but I just never noticed them. Now it seems that I’m constantly encountering bad fruit and I’m questioning whether I want to keep eating from this orchard. Should I find another orchard with fewer bad apples, or do I even like eating apples at all? Like you said…at some point..it is just bad stuff.

[Anonymous]

I wanted to look at Heber13’s Orchard a little more in depth.

Heber13 wrote:

We went picking apples this weekend in our orchard. We filled boxes full of beautiful apples. And we had separate boxes filled of worm-ridden, diseased and bug infested apples that we will send to pig farmers who want them free from us. The fruit of the tree was good and we eat it. But not every fruit of the exact same tree was edible. Some is seriously sick and unacceptable. It’s the same tree. How do I judge this fruit? How do I judge the tree? By the bad apples or by the good apples?

I want to share two fruit stories that I’ve heard in my travels:

1) Much like in Heber13’s story there was a family that had a small orchard. They didn’t sell apples or anything, it was just for personal family use. One day extended family visited right at the peak of when the apples were ready. The entire family went to pick apples so the visitors could have several bags to take home with them. As they were gathering apples one family member attempted to teach a lesson to the younger generation. They picked up an apple that some hornets had obviously been burrowing into and said, “If the hornets like it this much it must be a good apple.” and then took a big bite. Meanwhile the younger generation was left scratching their heads. Why would I want an apple that a hornet has been burrowing into if there are literally hundreds and hundreds of apples, more than we could possibly ever eat, that don’t have bug holes in them?

Supply and demand. How important is the prophet when there’s only one true church in the land? By contrast, if truth can be found anywhere, if everyone is a prophet, then we can be more selective about what we pick.

The apple that’s bad for Heber13 might be good for the family member trying to teach the younger generation a thing or two. Or it might be good enough for pigs. Or it might be good enough for worms. Maybe the apple rots on the ground and all it ends up doing is returning nutrients back to the soil. “Good fruit” is relative.

What if Heber13 showed up to the orchard a week earlier than he did? Some of that rotten fruit may have been deemed good enough to make crisps with but sitting on the ground that extra week gave the bugs time to get to it and pushed it over to the bad category. Maybe good fruit is dependent on timing. What we needed in the moment we needed it.

Sorry Heber13, I don’t mean to pick on you.

2) This story isn’t about apples, but it is about fruit. One day there was this family hiking in the woods. It was going to be a long hike, so they brought some food with them, one of the food items was a bag of raisins. As the family hiked along they ate from the bag of raisins. When the bag was nearly empty one family member decided to take a look at the raisins they had mindlessly been eating. The raisins were full of maggots.

The fruit instantly went from good to bad, even though it was the same exact fruit. The family immediately threw the raisins away. Now maybe if you’re Bear Grylls or someone like that you don’t care and continue to eat, I don’t know.

Good and bad can be relative to what we know about something. It can also be situational. If you knew you were going home later that day to eat a big meal some maggoty raisins are easy to dismiss as bad. If you got lost in the woods and ran out of food you might try to go back to the place where you threw out the raisins. If you were a hotdog and you were starving, would you eat yourself? (had to)

Maybe some of that related back to the topic. I think it becomes much easier to accept Joseph, or anyone for that matter, when you reach that place where it’s no longer an all or nothing deal. I think many times we look at people as the fruit. What if we looked at individual ideas as the fruit instead. The whole of what has been revealed through humanity is an orchard. In that orchard there are apples we’ll chose to eat and some we wont. I can eat Joseph’s eternal families apple but leave the polygamy apple for the pigs.

[Anonymous]

I take two thoughts on this.

First – No church that I have attended ever says “We are an okay church. We get some stuff right. We get some stuff wrong.” Every religion believes it’s founding story. Even if you or I can see flaws in it. As I proceeded through the early phases of my transition I studied, attended, and searched other religions. People from each of them were experiencing Faith Crisis. I found it in Buddhism, Evangelicalism, Amish, Catholicism, even Muslims. –

WE ARE NOT ALONE.

This is important to me because I did think I could find the right religion/church/lifestyle. My answer now is my true religion resides in me. No one else can create or take it from me. If I believe Muhammed had his experience. That is my belief. The only person who can change that is me. If Neal Anderson adores JS. That’s okay. I did once, too.

Second – My varied religion study brought me another insight. TIME. When you go back and look at the long histories of these churches you see the ebb and flow of their words, actions, doctrines. Its not pretty. I believe our pioneer ancestors, not just Joseph alone, would visit us today and wonder “What the Hey?” Early Buddhist monks fought each other to the death. So much for being Zen and loving like they promote today. When the present Pope began to speak out, I listened to my local Catholic radio station and local Cardinals and Parish Priests, were working overtime to correct him. They would take a phrase he said and then say, “Well he isn’t condoning gay marriage. He’s just saying….” I have a close Catholic friend who refuses to support the present Pope.

Do I miss being in the in crowd? Sometimes. Do I miss the easy assertions I floated on? Uh huh. But my husband (the post Mormon) brought up a great point the other day. Though I thought I’d chosen my religion before. I now can honestly say I have chosen my religion with a much deeper conviction. Every week or so when I show up, I am clear inside me about why I am there and what I represent.

[Anonymous]

Here’s a thing I wonder.

In all this talking about how we (the Church in general, TBMs whatevs, not us StayLDSers necessarily) view JS as pretty much untainted by any sin, he’s worshiped, kinda, as are other leaders, right? And sometimes (often, I guess) figuring out that these are human people who sin crushes their belief in those people, right?

What does that attitude have to do with how Church members view their fellow members who sin?

I mean, is this part of the Church culture, this weird unrealistic expectation of absolute perfection the reason why there is so much fear and shame attached to making a mistake?

I hope I’m explaining this rightly.

[Anonymous]

Great discussion. Thanks for sharing.

FaithfulSkeptic wrote:

Quote:

Heber13 wrote:

Judging them to be true prophets or false prophets is what it is all about. That is the testimony or faith we work through. Do we trust they bring us knowledge and truth from heaven, or are they wolves in sheep’s clothing?

This has me a little confused. This sounds pretty black & white, but I don’t think that’s what you are trying to say. With your example later on of picking apples, you had good and bad fruit from the same tree. So if I understand you correctly, a prophet can bring forth good and bad fruit, and you just have to decide what is good and discard the bad? The bad fruit doesn’t invalidate all the good fruit that comes forth. That makes sense to me.

Good clarification.

Help me keep my thoughts straight…but here is the intent of my message…In general, I judge JS to be a prophet (black and white…he is or he is not)…based on the fruit of his actions which are not black and white but are a sliding scale of it being good enough for me to tip the scales from False Prophet to True Prophet. Once I have him in my mind as a prophet, I can pick and choose to obey based on my understanding and my faith on various subjects. What a prophet is can be a deeper discussion, but in general (not in absolute terms), I can accept him as a prophet.

It just is difficult to talk about it without having an opinion. I can state my belief or opinion, even if the underlying elements that lead me to that opinion are drastically different than others. And sometimes, that is where the understanding comes from…getting to the underlying elements so we don’t talk past each other.

Something like this:

Friend: So, you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?

Me: Yes

Friend: Do you know all the things he did? There is so many things that make him seem like he is not worthy of a prophet of God. Some horrible things.

Me: Yes, from what I’ve studied, I accept him as a prophet.

Friend: Did you know about his hiding polygamy, and even with a girl as young as 14.

Me: Yes.

Friend: Then how can you believe he could possibly be a prophet?

Me: Because I read the whole body of work…all the good, all the bad, all the questionable stuff I don’t know if we understand. It isn’t so clear cut and easy, some is messy. I wonder if we would think the same of Moses if we had the details of Moses’ life like we do of a modern prophet we see close up and documented like Joseph Smith. I’m not making excuses…I’m simply stating my belief is in Joseph as a prophet…an imperfect mortal trying to follow God’s will. I actually feel better about God working with imperfect mortals, because perhaps he can even work with me.

Friend: Doesn’t that make you think prophets are worthless?

Me: Nope. I do think of them differently than I did in my younger days. 1 Cor 13:11-13

Does that clarify what I mean?? I think at a top level…without specifics and complicated answers…the high level answer is black and white. I believe Joseph is a prophet. Yes. Binary.

Detailed levels on this issue, or that issue, or this thing or that thing, or this teaching or that teaching, or this sin and that sin….once we get into details it is not black and white easy binary thinking.

The tree produces good fruit and bad fruit, enough good fruit I eat it and it nourishes me, I throw out the bad apples and I believe the tree is good.

[Anonymous]

nibbler wrote:

“Good fruit” is relative.

Well said.

I went on a discussion with missionaries this past week. The message to the investigator was not to convince them the truth is one way, the church’s way, for all people. It is not to prove all are going to hell except mormons and so you better get on board with us…we are the “right” people, we have the answers. (However, I might think the missionaries thought this…but it wasn’t the true message they were delivering).

The message was: I have found something that is worthwhile to me, and we want to share it with you. Pray about it. Does it feel right to you too?

I believe that the fruit will be good for some, not good for others. And that is ok. That may not be what I always hear in church. But that is ok, truth can be understood on many levels.

But the fact it is relatively good for some means those people that accept it (with faith) need a friend, the good word, and a responsibility to get involved with the church to continue pursuing the thing they found good for them.

Quote:

If the hornets like it this much it must be a good apple.

We actually found this to be exactly true. The ones with hornets, and the worms and most eaten by birds were the nastiest and most inedible gross apples in the yard…but…we also knew those were the apple trees making the sweetest apples when we could find the good ones. There is whole other lesson in that…how opposition works. But that is for another thread.

For those who can’t imagine trying an apple that had hornets burrowed in it…that is fine…they don’t HAVE to have that fruit and that tree. They will be fine without it…maybe…or maybe they will take drugs and whether they are unhappy or unhealthy has nothing to do with this apple tree but completely different set of choices and circumstances. We might make up stories..and say since they didn’t eat apples like us…they are drug addicts…but that isn’t necessarily true.

nibbler wrote:

Maybe good fruit is dependent on timing.

Absolutely brilliant, nibbler. I think it is, and I think that plays into this discussion on polygamy and Joseph Smith. It also can shed light on the Correlation Committee, and the Word of Wisdom laws, and the Internet today. Timing plays a role.

To go back to the apple tree analogy…100 years ago…many of the apples I threw away may have been used up and eaten and people wonder how anyone could think they are anything but perfectly good, and fine apples. Well…in today’s world…when I can go to the grocery store and pickup perfect and huge apples…well…these ones in my yard are relatively inferior. Why eat them when I can have better? But when there was no “better” in the past…they were good fruit.

Often we judge today’s experiences by past standards. Sometimes that is good. Not always. We progress and develop. We need modern prophets.

But timing is everything.

More to your point, nibbler….I don’t have to judge the tree as producing good or bad fruit only by the unripe ones I picked too soon, or the rotting ones I picked too late. I should realize the role I play in the timing of it and what I did to properly judge based on experience, wisdom and knowledge. Timing is everything.

Sometimes the scripture I read 10 years ago means something completely different to me today. Words didn’t change…but the taste in my mouth does.

I’m grateful for that…it is why scripture continues to be efficacious over hundreds of years.

[Anonymous]

Weaselgirl wrote:

I mean, is this part of the Church culture, this weird unrealistic expectation of absolute perfection the reason why there is so much fear and shame attached to making a mistake?

I think so in many cases, Weaselgirl. Somtimes that attitude holds us back as a church. However, not everyone is like that. But I have experienced it too much, and see the shame and guilt and drive towards perfection…and I seek to have a more loving and more accepting church welcome us into the chapels as we are, not a sign outside the church door that reads “You must be this tall spiritually to enter”.

But I believe the temples are setup that way. And so..we have let that flow too much in to too many things in our church…and it holds us back from welcoming and loving more people.

We have so many inactives in our ward that simply don’t feel welcome to come to church, have been offended, or feel like they need to be more worthy before they try to come back to church.

And that makes me sad.

I teach my kids how special they are, and allow them to make mistakes, and love them anyway. I sometimes think I’m too liberal…so I understand it is not easy for church members to know how to hold high standards and also being accepting and loving. To me…that is why we have church…to practice balancing these things.

[Anonymous]

This is such a great discussion! It’s so great for me to get different perspectives on how people view their faith. Thanks so much for your comments. And keep them coming! :thumbup: :clap:

[Anonymous]

I wonder what the tipping point is for some people who can no longer believe JS a prophet. What does it?

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

I wonder what the tipping point is for some people who can no longer believe JS a prophet. What does it?

Heber, just want to make sure I understand your question. Are you asking what the tipping point is pushes people over the line from believing that JS was a prophet, to no longer accepting him as a prophet?

If that’s what you’re asking, then I would say, for me, it isn’t just one thing. As I started learning about JS’s life, I became more and more shocked, the more I learned. But, there wasn’t one single event that pushed me over the line. It wasn’t until I looked at his life as a whole that I decided that I couldn’t believe that he was a prophet. I have no problem with him making mistakes. I have no expectations that a prophet has to be perfect. For me, it was just the way he lived his life. The treasure digging and magic stuff in the beginning, the Fanny Alger affair, the marriages that he told women to keep secret from Emma, the Council of 50, the Danites, the presidential run, the Nauvoo Legion, the Book of Abraham, the way he dealt with people who disagreed with him. It goes on and on and on. When I start to look at his life as a whole, I see him spending a lot more of his time on kingdom-building, raising himself up above others, and becoming increasingly grandiose as time went on. I just feel like I would have to adjust my definition of a ‘prophet’ so far, that it would then include anybody and everybody, and I believe that defiles the title of ‘prophet.’ It makes more sense, to me, to let go of trying to come up with creative ways to be increasingly flexible in order to call him a prophet. I know this is only my perspective, but for me, JS’s life was full of bad fruit, and the good fruit was few and far between. It just seemed like his life became more focused on building up his own kingdom, and focusing on his own prestige and pleasures, and wasn’t much focused on building Christ’s kingdom. He talked about building Christ’s kingdom, but to me personally, feels like it was a smoke screen.

So, there isn’t one thing that was the tipping point for me. It’s the way he lived his entire life. I believe God can speak to all of us, and work through all of us, but I don’t believe that makes us all prophets.

[Anonymous]

You answered my question, HC. That is what I was wondering…because I think there are valid reasons why at some point a person rejects JS as a prophet. And I don’t want this thread to only be about how JS can be considered a prophet despite the problems. I want the discussion with both sides of the scale. It helps me understand both perspectives. And you know what Obi-wan says about truth and perspectices

I’d like to hear from others too. Including you lurkers out there :wave:

[Anonymous]

What about from D&C 121:34-40?

Quote:

…the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we…exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man….

We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

[Anonymous]

I like that scripture that came through the prophet

I actually see it applies in many ways.

Is it possible it would apply for a while, until repentance brings the man back in line to be worthy of the priesthood again? Kind of like losing those periods of time when revelation ceased with Joseph, and then later, start to receive revelation again as he worked through his issues?

Or once power and authority is “amen”-ed, is it forever gone as an absolute? No good apples?

How do you believe God works with his children?

[Anonymous]

I feel like we in the church conflate two completely different concepts in the word “prophet”. One is “God’s mouthpiece”, and the other is “someone who holds the keys of administration in the church”. I don’t think these two concepts are the same at all.

Joseph Smith taught that

Quote:

A prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.

This is clearly referring to the first definition. If you look at the Old Testament and even some BoM prophets like Abinadi, they weren’t part of the administrative structure of the church. The people at the time didn’t recognize them as prophets. And yet this is how we regard them today. How I understand JS’s quote is that what makes someone a prophet isn’t authority in their position, but rather the words they speak being in agreement with the will of God. Another way to look at it is no one permanently has the position of “prophet” (first definition), since they are only such when they are speaking God’s words. And yes, it means that there can be (and often are) a great many “prophets” around at the same time.

Numbers 11:29 wrote:

And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? Would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

I accept that JS was a prophet when he spoke the words of God and wasn’t a prophet when his words and actions were contrary to God’s will. The same goes for the Q15. Christ taught that “by their fruits ye shall know them.” We can know when someone is acting as a prophet by the fruits that their words (back to Alma’s seed analogy) bring to our lives.

[Author]

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