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I think I’m probably at a place with my divorce where I’m mostly past the tumultuous times and crisis mode, and since my family issues were a big part of what set off my faith crisis, I’m not so sensitive about stuff as I was a few years ago. I’ve been thinking and studying stuff about church and doctrine since 2007, and I’m not sure I’m finding new faith-shattering topics.
So…it makes me wonder. Is it just me moving past crazy things in life and surviving? Or was 2007-2010 a crazy period where material on the Internet became easily available that it revealed some things to so many people, but now most people aren’t surprised anymore?
Even Conference talks touch briefly on some things (multiple first vision accounts, Uchtdorf talks, etc). So…what’s the landscape out there? Are we past some age of Internet enlightenment, or is it still pretty shocking for a lot of people and there are people dealing with things I’ve already been through…it’s still going on just the same for many members?
Are things dying down out there, or would you expect there is not too much change and we’ll see the same stuff being dealt with by people for years to come, and we’ll find StayLDS.com will still have healthy demand?
I can’t get a temperature from the blogs.
My impression is the awareness of issues is building but I wouldn’t yet call it critical mass – mostly because so many members act like Sheldon’s (Stake Pres?) that start to hear something (reading RSR) and then turn it off because they can’t or don’t want to deal with it. My feeling is in the years ahead will bring more of these members to a point of facing the issues. I think it will take some time for the church to fully acclimate in a way similar to what Terryl Givens talks about in the recent podcast. I’d say we’re down the runway almost to speed but haven’t lifted off yet. Most of the journey is ahead.
I think, in some ways, if I can say it humbly, that this forum has been ahead of the curve and that the Church leadership is starting to do, to the degree they can given the balance they have to walk, what we are doing and have been doing. I hope their recognition and actions lessen the need for our work, but, since the water takes a long time to get to the end of some local rows, I think the need for a place like this won’t diminish any time soon. I asked this question 2 years ago. We have seen some things from some church efforts. I just thought I’d take a pulse again from what you all see…do you think FC are happening less? Is there less demand for a support forum? Are new avenues or technologies changing our forum?
Brian…do you still get reports on statistics of visits and comments by people who thank us for our work?
I know it is summer, and things slow down…just wondered if our site is truckin along ok or dying down? And I wonder the bigger picture of what goes on with members and faith topics. Thoughts?
I think Ray is right – I think we have been ahead of the curve and the church leadership is recognizing what the issues are and is making an effort to deal with them. They need to get better at it and be even more proactive and open, but it’s a start. Rome wasn’t built in a day, as they say, and I think cultural change (and I think it is mostly culture) will take a long time to change. I don’t know if other areas have gotten the sabbath training we’re all supposed to get yet or how many are privy to it, but I see it as a step in the right direction. The way it’s supposed to have worked is that the Area Authorities were trained at GC, they were to train the SPs who in turn train the stake leadership and bishoprics who in turn train ward leadership. (In a way I would have liked it to be one of those big broadcast things, but it is long.) I think the apostles and Elder Soares who are part of the video presentation do get it, and our stake training had some really good comments. Our SP came right out and said we don’t talk about Christ enough, other churches do it far better than we do, and if a talk is not Christ centered and focused it doesn’t belong in SM. Elder Anderson made some great comments about the spirituality and covenants not being stagnant, and the sacrament isn’t only about renewing our baptismal covenants and we should stop focusing on that idea (he came up short of saying it wasn’t doctrinal, but he did say it is not scriptural). Elder Cook gave a really touching and powerful plea to help them (Q12) bring the church back to the Savior. I’ve only had the first half of the training, the church part, but I really do think the Brethren recognize this as something that can bring about positive change. Do you hear Methodists or Jehovah’s Witnesses falling away from their churches because of doctrinal issues? It probably happens, but their focus on God and Christ instead of April 6th and dinosaurs being from another planet and a myriad of other crap makes that less likely to happen. [DJ steps off the soapbox.]
Speaking of Elder Soares, I bet he’s on the short list for the Q12 and I’m in favor of it.
Heber – I think we are at a small low tide, maybe even a brief Indian Summer, but I don’t think we are done yet. Just look at the response when we had the Bishop’s July Letter first. I also think that the initial internet surprise has ebbed. Everyone has trenched into their corners, but I suspect with every GC we will be necessary as people unwrap what they hear. For now I am looking for seashells and starfish on the receded tide. I also sense the tide of discouragement creeping in as I read recent posts on Rational Faiths and Wheat and Tares. There is a smoldering anger that will need our resources whether people seek us or not. I believe we do effect if it’s just the handful of us. DJ – I hope you are right. Like so much in our church program success is local leadership driven. In our area the Sabbath Day thing is still a huge guilt package. Filled with judgement of others if they watch the Super Bowl on Sunday. Our High Councilors, keep stating their are no lists, but every talk is laced with guilt-ifiers like you wouldn’t believe. And Christ still hasn’t entered the field of conversation – it’s everything from filling callings, prodigal children, fasting and fast offerings, temple attendance – and not turning on the TV to watch that game – maybe even not checking your online work calendar so that you can fully keep the Sabbath holy. The Sabbath is presently a very long day in Sunday clothes behind a closed door. Maybe a walk or drive, that’s it. – I truly hope your Stake’s Model gets picked up and run with. On that note, it would help if GC modeled The Christ Centered talk model. If most of those talks were Christ Centered more wards would have Christ Centered meetings since we use those talks for just about everything.
One thing that I’m seeing that I didn’t see years ago, perhaps because I wasn’t looking, is that more and more people are starting to openly communicate criticisms online. In the past most of that kind of talk came from exmormons or anti-mormons. Now I’m starting to see people that are considered active mormons join in the conversations, defend their opinions, and not recoil at “but the prophet said” counterarguments. These aren’t just faceless avatars either, people are putting their public faces out there. I think social media and the church’s positions on LGBT issues have accelerated the process. It’s an important issue and there’s a disconnect between the church’s current position and the attitudes of the rising generation. It’s easier to have a little more self confidence when people see other
membershold different opinions. There’s still a need. Several months ago a member of the bishopric posted a link on FB to their recent blog entry on how you can’t be a Mormon and support SSM. A
youthstood up to them and posted a link to Christofferson’s recent comments. The youth was handily dismissed with (paraphrase): we’re all at different stages with our testimony, yours will get strong enough some day. I want a place like this to be here for people that are in similar difficult positions. There’s still a need. If I shared a tenth of the information that is found in the essays with people in my old branch… they would have run me out of town on a rail. The internet has made alternate interpretations of history readily available but that doesn’t mean that the alternate interpretations have permeated the general membership. People still need a site like this because someone will always be coming online (pun).
That brings me to another point. In the English speaking world many people know the issues, either directly or indirectly because a family member or friend “mysteriously” went inactive. The English speaking community is several years, if not a decade, into the process of learning about things that can shake faith. What about Spanish, Portuguese, Tagalog, etc. speaking members? I think they may be lagging behind the curve. Where will they go for support?
RE: The Sabbath Day focus. The instructions have trickled down to our row but it will take a little more time before leaders catch the vision. The last two sacrament meeting themes in my ward: Joseph Smith and Attend the temple. I’m guessing this week’s SM will be all about pioneers. I’d love to see everyone given the same topic for a whole year, Jesus and the atonement. Everyone that accepts a speaking assignment in the year 2016 will speak on that subject. At the end of the year we’ll get to hear what everyone in a ward thinks about that subject.
mom3 wrote:DJ – I hope you are right. Like so much in our church program success is local leadership driven. In our area the Sabbath Day thing is still a huge guilt package. Filled with judgement of others if they watch the Super Bowl on Sunday. Our High Councilors, keep stating their are no lists, but every talk is laced with guilt-ifiers like you wouldn’t believe. And Christ still hasn’t entered the field of conversation – it’s everything from filling callings, prodigal children, fasting and fast offerings, temple attendance – and not turning on the TV to watch that game – maybe even not checking your online work calendar so that you can fully keep the Sabbath holy. The Sabbath is presently a very long day in Sunday clothes behind a closed door. Maybe a walk or drive, that’s it. – I truly hope your Stake’s Model gets picked up and run with. On that note, it would help if GC modeled The Christ Centered talk model. If most of those talks were Christ Centered more wards would have Christ Centered meetings since we use those talks for just about everything.
I share your fear, Mom3. While I did see some lights come on in our training meeting and I saw bishops take notes (the SP had asked all in attendance to take notes), I also recognize the old adage about the geese who learned how wonderful it is to fly and walked home. And I agree with you about GC – I think the general model of GC talks is good (stories, scriptures, quoting the prophets) but they are not all Christ centered. GC, however, is not SM.
I will note here that beginning speaker in the first clip of the training is none other than (now) President Nelson. Elder Nelson gave a talk last GC about the sabbath. I’m trying not to be negative here, but I did notice that he talked about how lists of dos and don’ts for the sabbath as not necessary (his words:
In my much younger years, I studied the work of others who had compiled lists of things to do and things not to do on the Sabbath. It wasn’t until later that I learned from the scriptures that my conduct and my attitude on the Sabbath constituted a sign between me and my Heavenly Father. With that understanding, I no longer needed lists of dos and don’ts.) he went on to make lists of things we should and shouldn’t do on the sabbath. This was not part of his very brief excerpt in the training, however. I don’t think we can tell until the curriculum gets rewritten. Right now I know hardly an (active) soul who’s read the essays or who reads here, at NOM, etc. One, to be exact. Whether the next president is Elder Nelson or Oaks, I think he
willbe saying more than President Monson does, and that could really change the landscape. Ann wrote – Quote:Whether the next president is Elder Nelson or Oaks, I think he will be saying more than President Monson does, and that could really change the landscape.
Now for the horrible confessions of an unorthodox member – I want Pres. Monson to live about 5 more years. He can be quietly resting in his home, that’s fine for me, I lived through Spencer W. Kimball and Ezra Taft Benson (why is it that he gets Taft and not T.). We can do it again. I don’t want to loose Presidents Uchtdorf and Eyring. I am not ready for Oaks, Nelson, or Holland.
Just sayin’
Not to derail, but I agree Mom, I’d like Monson to hold on for some time and I am very much OK with a prolonged period of incapacity like Kimball/Benson (and before my time McKay). It is tradition, however, to keep counselors when a new president is called so I don’t think any of them will be readily releasing Eyring or Uchtdorf. I honestly don’t think Eyring is going to last too much longer anyway. There could indeed be a third counselor in the not too distant future and if Monson and Eyring do have periods of incapacity that leaves Uchtdorf running the show day to day. Not a bad thing. I could handle Oaks even though I disagree with him politically and on a few matters. I simply have no stomach for Nelson, Holland or Ballard.
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