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A little background: In our weekly email discussion my missionary son expressed his frustration that it’s hard for him to discuss any unorthodox views with is fellow missionaries. His views are far more orthodox than mine – he is a missionary, after all, and someone I consider to be a true believer. He said he dislikes when missionaries quote apostles from GC as if it’s scripture and his trying to assert that it’s not necessarily so “causes them to freak out” and do such things as quote D&C 68. I was on my phone at the time. (Isn’t technology wonderful – I can be sitting at a high school baseball game communicating with someone thousands of miles away on another continent?) So later I looked up the reference I knew, which was Elder Chirstofferson’s April 2012 conference address and will be sending that to him Monday (here for those unfamiliar: ChristoffersonMy background: As you may know, my faith crisis is intimately intertwined with prayer, revelation, and the “whisperings” of the Holy Ghost – if I had to point to one thing and say this is really the crux of the matter, that’s what I would say (although in reality “It is not that simple”).
On the one hand we have scripture (one which I question, honestly) telling us the apostle speaking is scripture and the mind, will, and voice of the Lord, and on the other hand we have a modern apostle telling us that’s not always the case and it only happens under certain circumstances (which does agree with the scripture). The problem is that circumstance is something I have a real problem with – I do not know how to recognize the Holy Ghost as opposed to emotion or something else. So, how have you, my dear friends, reconciled this?
As a side note, I do see the irony in an apostle speaking in GC (which some people believe is all scripture just because he’s saying it) telling us everything apostles say in GC isn’t always scripture
😆 DarkJedi wrote:As a side note, I do see the irony in an apostle speaking in GC (which some people believe is all scripture just because he’s saying it) telling us everything apostles say in GC isn’t always scripture 😆
Haha… yeah, you reminded me of that “I am lying” paradox from the original Star Trek.DarkJedi wrote:He said he dislikes when missionaries quote apostles from GC as if it’s scripture and his trying to assert that it’s not necessarily so “causes them to freak out” and do such things as quote D&C 68.
Booo. Great that your son is there to moderate, though. I had a recent discussion with a missionary here. She talked about how BKP’s conference talk got a buzz going with the missionaries, when he said “Their words are my words”, which could be him saying that he has seen Jesus. I mentioned how when BRM gave his final talk in GC in the 1980’s that he said (I paraphrased): “I will soon see Jesus when I leave this life, but I won’t know any more then than I know now, that He is the Savior”. She seemed a little disappointed.DarkJedi wrote:On the one hand we have scripture (one which I question, honestly) telling us the apostle speaking is scripture and the mind, will, and voice of the Lord, and on the other hand we have a modern apostle telling us that’s not always the case and it only happens under certain circumstances (which does agree with the scripture). The problem is that circumstance is something I have a real problem with – I do not know how to recognize the Holy Ghost as opposed to emotion or something else. So, how have you, my dear friends, reconciled this?
I don’t care whether it is the HG or emotion. If it ‘resonates’ with me, I accept it as something good I can live my life by. As for scripture vs GC, I will simply point out that on lds.org, under the heading ‘Scriptures’ they have the Bible and BofM, etc, and GC talks are under a separate heading called “Teachings”. Parenthetically, the Proclamation on the Family is also found under “Teachings” not under “Scriptures”.Quote:On the one hand we have scripture (one which I question, honestly) telling us the apostle speaking is scripture and the mind, will, and voice of the Lord
I think I know the one you mean, but, just to be sure, which scripture are you referencing?
Worth reminding him that the condition is “when moved upon by the spirit” (I think). Apparently that happens slightly less frequently than his TBM companions think. Hoo boy. Saints preserve us from 18 year old zealots! Old-Timer wrote:Quote:On the one hand we have scripture (one which I question, honestly) telling us the apostle speaking is scripture and the mind, will, and voice of the Lord
I think I know the one you mean, but, just to be sure, which scripture are you referencing?
D&C 68, but there’s a reference in D&C 1 as well. My son specifically mentioned D&C 68 when emailing. However, I do believe this to be a prevailing belief among the more zealous.
mackay11 wrote:Worth reminding him that the condition is “when moved upon by the spirit” (I think). Apparently that happens slightly less frequently than his TBM companions think.
True, and that’s the question. I have issues with the subject, so how is anyone to tell? Think of all those times people postulated reasons for the priesthood ban, which the church now says are all incorrect. People believed those – possibly as scripture because some were spoken by apostles in general conference. So how do we know?
I agree, Mac, I think Elder Chirstofferson while speaking on another subject (the doctrine of Christ, which he put very simply), slid in a very interesting message that I’m sure many TBMs either missed or try to ignore or explain away. On the other hand, how do I know he was speaking in a manner in which he was “moved upon” by the Holy Ghost?
hawkgrrrl wrote:Hoo boy. Saints preserve us from 18 year old zealots!
That’s the old saying, Hawkgrrrl – the church must be true or else the missionaries would have destroyed it long ago. I do believe this idea of everything in GC and the Ensign being scripture to be common among TBMs, though.
Yes, it is common – and it is wrong. See how simple that is? 😆 Here is a link to a Sunday School lesson I taught last year that included a discussion of D&C 1:38 – and other scriptures that relate to what prophets and apostles say. Feel free to share it with your son, if you like it:
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Sunday School Lesson Recap: Following the Counsel Given by Priesthood Leaders” ( http://thingsofmysoul.blogspot.com/2013/06/my-sunday-school-lesson-recap-following.html They were just speaking as men. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
Quote:I do believe this idea of everything in GC and the Ensign being scripture to be common among TBMs, though.
In this sentence, the word TBMs can be replaced with “anyone who hasn’t given it more than 5 minutes of rational thought.”
hawkgrrrl wrote:Quote:I do believe this idea of everything in GC and the Ensign being scripture to be common among TBMs, though.
In this sentence, the word TBMs can be replaced with “anyone who hasn’t given it more than 5 minutes of rational thought.”
I completely agree, but that idea doesn’t seem to fly very well with them either.Some of my friends and relations didn’t appreciate it when I said Sarah Palin wasn’t smart enough to be president (should John McCain do the all-too-thinkable and die in office), but so it was.
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