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The following article is important, I think, for multiple reasons. I am sure the end would not have been the same with all GA’s – but I also do not discount the fact that it ended this way with this GA, and I believe he is not unique in that regard. As much as anything else, I respect the courage it took for this woman to initiate the conversation. Yes, we still have a long way to go, and this might not change anything in the end . . . but it might. The ending is encouraging, no matter what.
https://www.the-exponent.com/guest-post-equal-partners-or-preside-over-pick-one/ Wow. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: I loved the article, Curt. Well, at first I was uneasy about it because I didn’t see how it could have a turn around, and it kept going in one direction. But I really enjoyed it. Thanks for posting it. I agree with you in that I’m not sure it’ll change anything, but it could and it’s encouraging that this woman engaged with a GA at all. Hope is not nothing. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I am happy for her. Grateful that she would share the story. I wish him luck if he chooses to pursue the clarification. We sure need one. No we need a hundred.
Thanks for sharing. I agree, it may not have ended the same with all GAs, but at least it ended this way with this one. I personally believe that the concept of husbands presiding over wives is doctrinal – in the sense that it is found in the bible and in our temple ceremony. The equal partners concept is much more recent. The temple language has been softened.
Doctrines can and do change over time and we have come so very far in just the last 50 years.
A change of wording to describe how husbands and fathers function in regards to the rest of the family would be yet another step in the right direction.
As of about 5 years ago it seemed to me that the church was doubling down on familial gender roles as evidenced by this song they had us learn in Primary. I later learned that the songs to be learned for the year were part of a correlated curriculum that was handed down from above.
Quote:2. A father’s place is to preside, provide,
To love and teach the gospel to his children.
A father leads in fam’ly prayer to share
Their love for Father in Heaven.
3. A mother’s purpose is to care, prepare,
To nurture and to strengthen all her children.
She teaches children to obey, to pray,
To love and serve in the fam’ly.
progress is never linear. I suspect that we have some retrenchment still to go in the see-saw, back and forth path that moves us forward. Yet, we will move forward.
Preside has got to go. It’s truly garbage and meaningless in the context of a family. It’s needlessly hurtful, like we just have to make sure we poke women in the eye in case they start thinking they aren’t second class citizens. There is literally NO upside to using this word and only significant downside. Men don’t need to be told to subjugate their wives–that comes easy enough for many. They need to be told NOT to subjugate them. Yes, it’s in scripture. Of course it is. Marital rape was legal a few decades ago. Women have been treated second class or worse for millenia. That doesn’t make it right or God’s will, just historical.
What Hawk said – unless we start saying explicitly that spouses co-preside. I can live with that. I remember early in my marriage reading/hearing that and realizing it was a mistake as an expectation, command, and doctrine. Three for three. I don’t have a problem with the idea that an organization needs authority and to have an authorized person to preside with checks and balances in place for that. It doesn’t apply to a union of 2 people that are to view each other as equals.
It’s got to go in the marriage and family aspect, or for having access to God and revelation.
You can’t tell a woman she can’t ever preside. And then turn around and also teach divorce is not acceptable either.
It doesn’t work to say, “You’re equal, but you are subservient, and you can’t give up on the situation with your place.”
My other thought…who cares if it is doctrine?
Doctrines changeWhat I like about the article is that the church leader listened. And took time to respond with love, even if that response was not sufficient…it was an expression of love. There may be 2 opposing viewpoints on the subject. But still discourse.
Old Timer, that was a great article. I agree with you that as a church we have long ways in equality. I’m glad to see that General Authority was understanding towards her and open minded. Old Timer wrote:
The following article is important, I think, for multiple reasons. I am sure the end would not have been the same with all GA’s – but I also do not discount the fact that it ended this way with this GA, and I believe he is not unique in that regard. As much as anything else, I respect the courage it took for this woman to initiate the conversation.Yes, we still have a long way to go, and this might not change anything in the end . . . but it might. The ending is encouraging, no matter what.
https://www.the-exponent.com/guest-post-equal-partners-or-preside-over-pick-one/
Wow Ray! Thanks for posting this. I want to point out a few things that the woman who kept at this GA did. First, she had the courage to speak up in the face of authority. Even if this GA was not higher up, in most contexts we lack the courage to continue challenging them GA’s when their answers are less than satisfying. You actually risk being put down in front of everyone if you do, and many will jump to calling you apostate.
I admire her reasoning — and the way she gave him an “out”. Never did she come across as unbelieving or antagonistic — she stuck to the facts, and came from the perspective of using modern language. This gives the GA an out. The people at the top paint themselves into corners when they make absolutist statements (like everything is inspired) and it takes convoluted arguments to get them out these binds. But her approach made the issue one of language.
Will this change things? Maybe or maybe not, but I see change in the church much like water drops on mountains. The continual wearing of a drop of water eventually cuts a chasm in the rock. I feel that our posting here is one such path in that rock. I am surprised that I have heard phrases used here on STayLDS in the unorthodox bloggernacle influence talks by GA’s. I’ve also heard them rebut our arguments or positions. But it shows that the internet has been a powerful force for good in improving the experience of being a Mormon.
I suspect GA’s lurk here — or people meant to survey social media by them, to find patterns.
In that respect, we do have a voice….not an antagonstic one, but voices who, in expressing personal opinion, inadvertently contribute to the gradual impression in the rock.
Ilovechrist77 wrote:
Old Timer, that was a great article. I agree with you that as a church we have long ways in equality. I’m glad to see that General Authority was understanding towards her and open minded.
But only after she persisted in uncovering the flaws in his explanations. Something to be said for that. I am as interested in her process and approach as I am in the issue she addressed.
I found her exchange with the GA to be both encouraging (she has the patience of a saint!) and disheartening. How on earth can he require this much work to still end at an unsatisfactory conclusion? He still doesn’t get it. And she has to go out to meet him in his wrong position so many times. It really does make it feel hopeless to me. I understand, Hawk, but the VAST majority of people have to hear something they do not understand intuitively repeatedly in order to get it finally. My years in education have taught me that in spades. It is encouraging to see someone get it after “only” a few restatements. It shows a sincere desire to understand, even when the ability to do so quickly and painlessly is lacking.
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