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Roy, I’m new to this process. Try to bear with me. It is interesting to follow your progress from your Introduction to the latest posting.
Your most recent posting is very insightful & encouraging.
It’s as good as any Sacrament or Conference talk.
Maybe better, because it has the potential to be a positive impact others that
are going through a similar situation. (I hope to get similar insights in my life.)
I know that this process doesn’t come easily. Maybe it’s not suppose to.
Now if you come across anyone with a similar experience (within the Church or outside), you can say, “I know from experience what you are going through”. And, “This is how I’m dealing with it”. (I would share the good, the bad & the ugly.) You can help them avoid
the bad & the ugly.
Thank you. Your experience, strength & hope are helping me too.
Mike from Milton
Today marks the 2 year anniversary the day that changed our world, the day our daughter Emory was born without life – stillborn. Two years is also the statute of limitations for filing a wrongful death suit. My older sister is a lawyer and has been pushing for the lawsuit due to some substandard care issues and some missed opportunites to avert this stillbirth. We have decided not to file. I believe the main reason for me is that I don’t think I could function well while going through it all again and no one wants to hear why the child you lost two years ago is affecting your job performance now.
The day after we made the decision not to file a claim, I saw a good LDS friend and asked for a hug. I told her that the last week had been hard and explained to her the difficult decision we had wrestled with recently. She responded, “Why would you want to sue? You get to have your baby back in the eternities anyway.” I know that this friend was speaking in ignorance and I will hold no animosity, but I think this example illistrates an important point.
Our doctrine should be used to soothe pain, not to dismiss that pain.When I first came here I wrote some about the ambiguities of sealings for stillbirths:
Roy wrote:It was around this time that I discovered that stillborn children are not currently sealed to their parents. The most direct answer that I was able to find to explain this policy was that God has not revealed when life begins. I understand the complexities of drawing a line in the sand, saying that stillbirths may be sealed to parents but not miscarriages for example. But it makes it more difficult to hang all our hopes on the sealing bond when it may not apply for Emory.
SilentDawning wrote:Also, I’m not convinced it’s even doctrine about what happens to stillborn or miscarried children — it may well be opinion that has made its way into policy of the Church, but I doubt very much if you can find evidence of what truly happens to such children in the scriptures definitively (perhaps someone else can answer this).
Recently I came across the section on stillbirths in the CHI:
Quote:Stillborn Children (Children Who Die before Birth)
Temple ordinances are not performed for stillborn children. However, this does not deny the possibility that a stillborn child may be part of the family in the eternities. Parents are encouraged to trust the Lord to resolve such cases in the way He knows is best. The family may record the name of a stillborn child on the family group record, followed by the word stillborn in parentheses.
Memorial or graveside services may be held as determined by the parents.
It is a fact that a child has life before birth. However, there is no direct revelation on when the spirit enters the body.
It still bothers me. If sealings are so critical that a couple that forgoes a temple sealing in favor of a civil marriage will be forever separated after death, how is it that now – without the possibility of a formal sealing ordinance for our daughter – we are now being told to just “trust the Lord” that everything will work out for the best in the end?
I suppose part of my frustration is the source. It doesn’t seem fair that the church can say that sealings are necessary but then withhold them in certain cases and tell you to figure it out on your own. After believing that the church (as the repository for divine priesthood and ordinances) is the mediator between myself and God, it was very terrifying to have that assurance withdrawn.
On the other hand I have received similar advice here but It has been much more helpful. I have been able to consider that the sealing ordinance may be symbolic and that God, as my Heavenly Father, is someone I can have confidence in to leave the fate of my family in His hands. He was there waiting for me to trust him all along.
Quote:FWIW, I think our connections to the ones we love are eternal. The specific details we think about in LDS theology are some positive ways to think about it. But I am not so sure that we really understand these connections fully. Our teachings approach and reach out to describe the deep connections and love we have for people in our family, but the teachings aren’t the totality of it.
Quote:I have also found great peace in something that Pinkpatient said: “The real sealing power lies within our hearts.”
Also, for anyone reading this that has had similar challenges but with miscarriages I wanted to link to the following:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2155&p=31133&hilit=pregnant+miscarrige#p31133 Just know that you are never alone!
Fwiw, Roy, I understand your decision – and, based on what you’ve shared and what I know of you, I think it absolutely was the correct decision. The following part of what you wrote really resonates with me:
Quote:Our doctrine should be used to soothe our pain, not to dismiss that pain.
Amen, brother – and amen.
I can answer Amen to what you both have said. Again, I’m sorry for your loss.
Sometimes it is better to give a hug & say nothing.
I believe that hugs are very important when you hurt.
You were right to ask for one.
Mike from Milton.
I don’t share this very often, especially publicly, but . . . I will try to do so now, hoping what I type doesn’t hurt anyone in any way but helps somehow.My mother was a top-level executive secretary before her marriage to my father. She was one of the youngest Church Headquarters secretaries in the history of the church at that time – during Pres. McKay’s presidency. (I have no idea if that still is the case, but it wouldn’t surprise me.) She has a very personalized letter signed by the First Presidency given to her when she got married and stopped working. (totally her choice, not policy in any way)
She really wanted to have children and stay home with them, but her first three pregnancies ended in miscarriages. Her fourth went full-term, and she gave birth naturally to a stillborn girl. She had no idea; the stillbirth came as a complete shock. Obviously, she was crushed.
I’ve written elsewhere about my parents’ decisions after those four pregnancies and how they almost gave up and adopted instead, and I’ve linked here to a post I wrote in tribute to my father and the choice he had to make after the eventual birth of their twins. The part I want to share here, however, has nothing to do with those subsequent decisions.
My parents understand that the Church’s official position with regard to stillborn children is, “We don’t know.” It was painful for them, but they (and I) understand that position. It is the best position to take, imo – since anything else would open up all kinds of other issues that are best left closed. (The implications for abortion policy is the simplest example, and I REALLY don’t want to see the kind of change that would necessitate.) My parents know the official position – and, since it is, “We don’t know,” they are free to believe they have nine children instead of the eight whom they raised. That is very liberating to them, and my dad has expressed gratitude that they are able to have that hope. It means the world to him.
For me, however, it’s strictly academic – since it all happened before I was born. Honestly, I struggle even to type her name or write “my sister”. Since it’s academic for me, and since that gives me the detachment to think about all the implications of different views, I have a hard time intellectually believing what my parents believe. It’s hard for me to type this paragraph in a way in which I am comfortable, as it raises all kinds of emotions,
not the least of which is a degree of consternation and even pain that I don’t feel more strongly about it. It hurts my heart a little to know that, to me, I have five sisters (not six) and two brothers – and, to me, it’s different than if it was a case of an older sibling dying some time after birth. In that way, I am very different than my parents – and I NEVER would dream of saying that to them or writing it in a forum they might read. I’m not sure they would understand, and I think they might be hurt greatly. It is my own reality, however – and so I think I understand both views, at least to the extent possible for someone who hasn’t experienced it personally.
I honestly am not sure why I felt like sharing that. This has been the most difficult comment to write since I started participating here way back in the beginning of this site – since I really struggle to find the “right” words, both for others AND myself. In the end, I simply am thankful that the “official position” of the Church allows me to feel differently about such a personal, emotional topic than my own parents do without any “doctrinal” guilt for either of us. That means a lot to me, actually – and I don’t think I’ve ever thought about it quite in that way previously.
It probably sounds trite to say this, but thanks for giving me the chance to work through that today.
Mike wrote:Sometimes it is better to give a hug & say nothing.
I believe that hugs are very important when you hurt.
You were right to ask for one.
I agree, I have discovered that there is no phrase to say to a grieving person that is always helpful, always acceptable. Some phrases may be offensive at some junctures and helpful at others. Because of the difficulty in knowing what to say (and generally dealing with grief) some opt to say nothing at all. This seems like the sin of omission, by doing nothing you anonymously contribute to the isolation trapping the griever (I was one of these people that just ignored the subject). Some people are gifted to be able to talk and
listento a griever, for everyone else a hug and a “we care about you!” is a good compromise. Old-Timer wrote:official position with regard to stillborn children is, “We don’t know.” It was painful for them, but they (and I) understand that position. It is the best position to take, imo – since anything else would open up all kinds of other issues that are best left closed. (The implications for abortion policy is the simplest example, and I REALLY don’t want to see the kind of change that would necessitate.)
I agree with you Ray, taking a firm doctrinal position on this may very well be a slippery slope to other issues and questions requiring further doctrinal clarification. What about abortion? miscarriages? birth control? stem cell research? in-vitro fertilization? And I would hate to see such doctrinal pronouncements limiting the choices available to LDS couples etc.
Old-Timer wrote:My parents know the official position – and, since it is, “We don’t know,” they are free to believe they have nine children instead of the eight whom they raised. That is very liberating to them, and my dad has expressed gratitude that they are able to have that hope. It means the world to him.
I have often supposed that any doctrinal stand on this would be that stillbirths are alive and they do “count” for sealing purposes (given several opinions of past GA’s that they do count), but it could also go the other way – that only live births receive the breathe of life and become a living soul. This too would have uncomfortable consequences (both seen and unseen) on a breadth of issues. One direct consequence of this potential action would be that your parents might have less confidence that this child can be reclaimed.
Old-Timer wrote:For me, however, it’s strictly academic – since it all happened before I was born. Honestly, I struggle even to type her name or write “my sister”. Since it’s academic for me, and since that gives me the detachment to think about all the implications of different views, I have a hard time intellectually believing what my parents believe. It’s hard for me to type this paragraph in a way in which I am comfortable, as it raises all kinds of emotions, not the least of which is a degree of consternation and even pain that I don’t feel more strongly about it. It hurts my heart a little to know that, to me, I have five sisters (not six) and two brothers – and, to me, it’s different than if it was a case of an older sibling dying some time after birth.
In that way, I am very different than my parents – and I NEVER would dream of saying that to them or writing it in a forum they might read. I’m not sure they would understand, and I think they might be hurt greatly. It is my own reality, however – and so I think I understand both views, at least to the extent possible for someone who hasn’t experienced it personally.
My daughter was almost 4 at the time and was old enough to be excited about having a new baby sister. To her she definitely has two siblings (her brother and “baby Emory” that lives with Jesus). But for my son, who was only two at the time, things are different. We remind him to include her, but it is like reminding him to say please and thank you – something that he does because it is socially acceptable in our house not because it has any particular significance to him. So I can understand where you are coming from Ray.
But this conversation has started me to think of alternate stillbirth sealing possibilities:
1) The church could allow the sealings but keep the “we don’t know” doctrine. This would essentially be an extension of what we do towards deceased persons that had ample opportunity to accept the gospel in mortality but didn’t. When in doubt – seal anyway and it will work out right in the end.
2) We could drop sealings for any child under the age of eight. Sealing is the only required ordinance that is performed on persons below this age mark. Given that little children are alive in Christ, perhaps they don’t need no stinking ordinances and will become all that they can be completely apart from any rite or ritual we may perform on earth.
What do you think?
One outcome of my journey to date is that I do believe in the concept of our forever family. This idea is just no longer dependant on “endurance to the end” or the continued good graces of the church in order to make it happen. If JS could go to hell for Emma, (I know that is badly taken out of context, but just go with it for a moment) then with the strength of the love that is within me and the love of our merciful Heavenly Father I can do the same for my loved ones. My God would not force the separation of those that are one in heart.
Ironically, this is surprisingly similar to what the CHI advises that I should do – to trust in the Lord that even I will be forced to declare that his judgments are just. Who knew?
The Church doesn’t know. That’s their official position. That being the case, it seems to me the default is whatever would make things right and whole in the universe, whatever would bring people joy. That’s what it means when “God will take care of things and make them right.” Joseph Smith had a vision of his older brother Alvin already in the Celestial Kingdom waiting to greet him before temple ordinances were even in his imagination. Alvin hadn’t even been baptized (even as a Christian as far as I remember). What does that tell you? God makes things right.
If you really think about it, that’s really what it’s going to boil down to for the vast vast majority of people who traverse this mortal coil. The number of people who have had the ordinances done, either in this life or by proxy, is so small as to be immaterial. As best as scientists can guess, there’s been 110 BILLION people on the earth so far. It’s gonna be a busy millennium
Sealing families together is a beautiful dream. I choose to believe there is truth in the concept. God isn’t a bureaucrat. God isn’t arbitrarily going to lock babies up in an afterlife dungeon in order to make sure they don’t have any contact with their parents until a ritual we humans invented is acted out. I believe in concept of sealings, but not the arbitrary beaurocracy we invent about it.
Joseph Smith revealed/restored the beautiful concept of sealing families together. Most things like this work great in the positive polarity. The reverse polarity is almost always problematic — people who are not sealed in this life are separated. THAT IS NOT WHAT JOSEPH SMITH REVEALED AS A PROPHET!!!! It’s B.S. that uninspired people after him assumed was “true” based on incorrect logical extrapolation.
Nice phrase. I heard this topic somewhere else where it says, why do bad things happen to good people and why do good things happen to bad people. I would say, it only takes a matter of time. God has his own way of blessing and punishing us depending on situation and on our relationship with Him. pusaqall wrote:I would say, it only takes a matter of time.
I agree, pusaqall. Of course, sometimes time determines what is “good” or what is “bad” for us, so it is hard sometimes to discern in the immediate short run. That is why it is wise to go slow and take sufficient time before making up our minds on important things about religion.
Well, people are really bound to experience certain things and we can just do much to avoid them. Thare is no measure as to how things are going to happen to you as most of them work through chance. And even though you have practiced to be a good and following person all your life, you might still end up with some bad thing to happen to you.
I feel that some person struggling with stillbirth, grief, and doctrinal ambiguities – might someday find my introduction and be helped by it. It is my account of my personal journey. It also includes some links to various sources that have given me additional perspective about such an event. It helps me to put this out there and think that it is helpful to others and so I add an update every now and then. I sometimes think about writing a book about my experience but I don’t think it would be very marketable. I think people tend to want answers, I know I did. If I had a book that included a spiritual journey to the afterlife (NDE) or a visitation from a deceased person – that would be a draw! Some sort of conviction and proof of what it all means! But instead what I have is an ever expanding collection of possible interpretations that may seem right to various people involved in such a stillbirth event. I believe these interpretations can be real and “true” even if they conflict from person to person.
For those that may be unfamiliar with my journey and aren’t particularly inclined to read the whole intro. – The cliff notes version is that the church does not have a defined doctrine as to what will happen to the children whose unborn lives end in stillbirth or miscarriage. Essentially – we do not know.
Anyway – I recently ran across a post at “Times and Seasons” that adds a few interpretation options to the list.
http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/03/tessa/ In the original post the parents of the stillborn child felt that the child was greeted in heaven by a deceased family member and that they would be reunited as a family in the eternities. This is the traditional interpretation.
In the comments there are two other possibilities presented:
1) That the spirits destined to come to a particular family but that are thwarted through miscarriage or stillbirth may still come to that family through a later birth. A mother of 6 living children and 2 miscarriages testified that her family was complete with 6 spirit children (meaning that it was not missing 2 deceased children as their spirits were redirected to other embryo bodies from this same couple that later came available).
2) It may be that the doctrine is inconclusive because God does different things in different situations. Whether an infant qualifies as a living soul might not rest on gestational age as much as it depends on what is “right and just” in the particular situation. So just what might determine the right and just outcome for a particular unborn child? This seems to vary depending on who you ask.
Perhaps the silver lining to not institutionally having any firm doctrine in this area is that we as individuals are free to imagine (and hope for) our own greatest desires for our loved one. We can take comfort in those things that bring us comfort and ignore or discard those things that our own spirit does not confirm to be personally “true” within our hearts. We can embrace the uncertainty.
I was sitting in SM last Sunday and my 7 year old daughter wanted to show me a picture that she had drawn. It had Me, DW, DD, and DS on the earth represented as stick figures. Among the clouds of the firmament there was a male stick figure and a female stick figure. My daughter explained to me that the female is our deceased child, Emory, and the male is Jesus. Emory turns to Jesus and says, “Look at them down there! Will they be ok?” Jesus responds, “Yes, as long as we believe in them.”I wanted to share this but I wasn’t sure where would be most appropriate. After pondering, I feel strongly that this would be fitting as a book-end or closure to my confused and pain filled introduction of 3 years ago.
We will be ok.
We do believe. And the belief we have (though tempered with uncertainty) is precious. We are also the beneficiaries of the love, support, and “belief” of others. We are part of a great tapestry of humankind. It is our blessing to participate! To serve and be served, To uplift and be uplifted, To love and be loved!
We will be ok.
Love you, friend. Give your daughter a hug and a kiss. “Out of the mouths of babes,” indeed.
Roy, thank you for sharing this with us. What a wonderful moment that must have been. I hope you keep that picture.
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