When to speak up, and when to be quiet?

[Anonymous]

We were talking about participation in classes in another thread: http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=122&p=941#p941

It was getting a little off the original topic, but looks like the makings of a good discussion. So I am starting a separate thread here.

When should we speak up, and when should we be patient and quiet?

This gets into some real nitty gritty dealing with our peaceful coexistence with others in the Church. We all know that burning passion and excitement (or disappointment) when we know something. We are the type of people that dig into stuff. We are passionate to seek answers. We have to tear it all apart to see how it ticks. This makes a LOT of other people very uncomfortable 😈

Some people are afraid. I totally understand. You want to say something, and are afraid that some whole freakin’ truckload will dump out of your mouth and you can’t stop. I get afraid sometimes I will say too much. I might not keep track of how far out of orthodoxy I am talking. I like to think about a lot of possibilities. I am just thinking, but talking can be mistaken for true belief. I might just be thinking out loud.

I think I do a pretty good job lately of just nudging the class discussions a little bit. It is fun for me. The more I do it, the better I think I can handle it. It is possible to make mistakes though

A few weeks ago, I think it was a ward conference, the stake presidency was giving a PH lesson (EQ and HP combined). It was about temple work. They were pushing for more and more attendence. I tried so hard to just sit there and read my extra materials and ignore it because I could feel myself getting aggitated. They started asking for new ideas on how we could devote MORE time to temple attendance. I started to squirm listening to all the usual canned answers. Before I could stop myself, my hand shot up…

I said “Well I hear all these good brothers talking about ideas. I know they are busy and involved in lots of valuable activities in life. The simple answer is we would have to decide NOT to do some of those valuable things. We could NOT spend time with our children, our family. We could NOT spend time at work. We could NOT spend time rejuvenating and resting. That would free up time for more temple attendance.” The obvious implication is that we were not just sitting around on the sofa with nothing to do. Everyone in that room worked hard to support their family, attend church and fullfill volunteer callings for the church in their spare time.

I was such a stinker . There was a very slight pause as the SP digested it. He moved on with hardly a skipped beat. I was glad. Me and my big mouth! LOL.

[Anonymous]

Wow V, well done.

At least you were not debated, to me that is a sign that people did agree!!!!

Personally I am no where near being that vocal yet.

KInd of on a side note, I recently sent a note to my RS Pres requesting I no longer be assigned VTing, or be VT. She responded by asking for a visit with me.

She came yesterday and it was a good experience. Basically she knew a little about my dh dissaffction from Bishop, and then she was also told recently that I had rejected a RS teaching calling as I had some issues with teaching publicly on JS. So basically I just expanded on what I have been going through. YOu know she did get my point. I told her I did not want to ever hurt anyone else and that this was my journey and right now I need to lay low so I can think and ponder things. I told her some lessons I will filter out, and some I think i may not even attend, or even walk out on, but I stressed to her when she witnesses this that I did not want her to freak out and think I was offended etc. I told her that my journey started when I saw the church moving in a direction that I was not comfortable with, and for the first time ever I was not on the same page as the Prophet, hence why I do not want to be sharing GA messages in the VT messages etc as frankly many of them I no longer conform to or support. My discomfort on the future has now been compounded with histroical issues…hence I am totally in limbo now but do not wish to leave yet as being LDS has been good for me to date, thus I am giving myself time to digest, think, and slowly decided how I wish to live and believe in the future.

So yes I spoke up but not in a classroom setting. I was really happy that it was just taken on board by my RS leader. I felt really blessed that day for this experience. Our Bishop has been much the same.

Cheers,

[Anonymous]

Honestly, I don’t think there is a right or wrong “time” to speak up for most members. Rather, I think there is a right and wrong “way” to speak up.

I say things that are “corrective” all the time, but I never frame my comments negatively in church meetings. I always begin with something like, “I wonder sometimes . . .” or “What about . . .” or “That’s interesting, but I think . . .” I also speak in a pretty soft voice, and my pitch is low (which also tends to soften the sound and make people listen carefully). I simply NEVER raise my voice when I comment – not at all. (I am quite animated when I give talks, but that’s a different situation.) Finally, nobody sees me as a threat to any person or the Church, so they are willing to consider what I say.

Now, in all honesty, I am in a different position than most (if not all) of you here. Being a recent member of the bishopric and currently serving on the High Council lends an aura of legitimacy all its own. However, I really believe that if none of one’s comments are presented harshly, or confrontationally, or in a way that is seen as an attack (and if most comments are not contradictory), most people will accept them.

That is my final piece of advice: If there are areas where you have issues, before you comment on them build up some class cred by commenting during those discussions where you DON’T have any problems – where you are agreeing with everyone. If your “agreeing” comments outnumber your “disagreeing” comments, the disagreeing comments are more likely to be accepted and considered (assuming good presentation).

[Anonymous]

I agree it is important to build up credibility and social capital. Smiling a lot, speaking calmly, be positive, those all help tremendously.

[Anonymous]

I also like to ask myself sometimes “What is the purpose of speaking up?” If the purpose is worthwhile and will have a good outcome, I do. But I don’t have to enlighten people with my wisdom 24/7.

[Anonymous]

The sad thing about this is that it is normal human behavior. The church leader is interested only in increasing attendence at the temple because that is his area of direct responsibility as he sees it. No different really from a boss at work droning on and on about how to make the company more efficient, increasing sales or productivity or some such issue.

If speaking up makes you feel better, great. Its been my experience it has little utility because the audience responsible for the drivel still has his goals to meet, but at least it shut him up for the moment, which is always a plus!

[Anonymous]

Quote:

The church leader is interested only in increasing attendence at the temple because that is his area of direct responsibility as he sees it.

Fwiw, I’ve never met that person in my 40+ years in the Church. I’m sure he exists, but I’ve never met him.

[Anonymous]

Old-Timer wrote:

Quote:

The church leader is interested only in increasing attendence at the temple because that is his area of direct responsibility as he sees it.

Fwiw, I’ve never met that person in my 40+ years in the Church. I’m sure he exists, but I’ve never met him.

Well that was the whole purpose of the meeting, and that was this leader’s area of responsibility. It was conducted like a motivational management meeting.

The big problem is when we use words like “only” and “just” as if there is only one reason for things, and the motivation is just about numbers. I know what you mean Ray. Those aren’t the singular focus of that man’s life. It pretty much was during the meeting though .

[Anonymous]

I find that often times when I speak up in church the experience is rather disorienting. On the one hand, these are good experiences, because often my comments are responded to and supported in some way. On the other hand, they are negative because I wonder how or whether I should try to carve out a place amongst people who seem to think so differently than me.

In a BYU Singles ward, we were discussing ( I believe it was Mosiah 4) and the class was going off on tangents at the beginning that would have been hurtful to singles who had sexual troubles in their past or present and then towards the end of the class was focusing more or less on how to rationalize our wealth. I felt that the class was vastly overlooking the part of the chapter that spoke most clearly to me, and also overlooking the realities of life in poorer countries, or even of the poor within our own. I wanted to speak up, but was nervous. Especially, there was a guy sitting just a few seats down from me who had worked extensively in South Africa and whom I had talked with before. I suspected that he shared my uneasiness, but I couldn’t pick anything up in his facial expressions or demeanor to indicate such. Maybe I was just being oversensitive? I went ahead and offered my comment to the class anyways. Afterwards, the same guy approached me and thanked me for speaking up. Also, the RS President, who had seemed frustrated from a few rows in front of me (She had tried to offer a few comments in the earlier part of the lesson to try and sort of redirect the conversation) also approached me after class to thank me for my comment in that class and others in general.

In the same ward, a different day, the Stake President was holding a special meeting with the sisters. Sharing that the church seems to be losing a lot of their women during the transition from YW to RS, he asked for our thoughts on why this might be. After several others had shared their thoughts, I offered some things that I had found particularly difficult in the transition. The SP basically responded by becoming defensive and denying the existence of my experience. I was a bit taken aback but just sort of shrugged it off. Later the same day I was being set apart for a new calling. A member of the bishopric who had been sitting in on the meeting with his wife sort of asked some questions along the lines of, “So, how was RS today?” I gave some noncommittal response, not wanting to seem frustrated. He then basically replied, “Yeah, you kind of got your head bit off. I don’t think that the SP understood what you were saying.”

Another single student’s ward, in a Gospel Principles class, we were discussing Missionary Work. I shared some of my thoughts on missionary work. I wanted to share these because I felt they were important, but also because I was trying to figure out whether they really could fit into a missionary program. (Basically, I commented something about being open to learn about others’ faith. Not always just trying to offer our own.) The teacher responded by looking sort of confused and flustered and then responded in a way that sort of twisted my words and redirected them to something that I would imagine he thought fit the lesson better. A little later, another girl in the class offered some comments that supported my own. This girl was my visiting teacher and knew that I attended other churches. So, I don’t know if that influenced her speaking up or not. Still, it was appreciated.

I appreciate the support I have received in my wards when I have chosen to speak up. Still, it is disorienting:

In the first instance, although I received support from the other members, it was strange that my comment was an odd or redirectional one. Basically, the main body of the class seemed excited to talk about things that I felt were directly in opposition to the teachings of the gospel. While I appreciate the supportive comments and thanks offered, it troubles me that our hopes to make the discussion more inclusive, sensitive and aware were not the norm. When I visit other churches where the conversation is more centered on love and inclusivity, it makes me wonder. Even if I am receiving support, why should I stay where my voice is the odd one?

In the second instance, I was just really caught off guard. I have competed in oratorical events for several years and feel that I am fairly aware of how vocal intonation and word choice can affect what people hear when I speak. Even if I don’t always control my voice perfectly or choose the perfect wording, I can usually go back and figure out where the mistake was made. In this particular instance, I had made a point to speak carefully and make sure that my comments would not come across in a threatening or antagonistic manner. I guess that was why I was able to shrug it off; I had done my best. Still, it is disorienting to be so careful and give exactly what they are asking for and still be forcefully brushed aside.

In the final example, I eventually had to just leave the lesson and cry outside our ward building for a little while before I could return. I was truly trying to determine whether my beliefs were compatible within the framework of Mormonism. I was allowing myself to be vulnerable by asking questions or offering comments for others to respond to. I wanted their honest opinions and understandings. Still, it hurt to have the responses of the vast majority of those surrounding me to be, “No, no you can’t really believe that,” or otherwise corrective in nature.

I apologize for the length. In short, those are my experiences in regards to speaking up and keeping quiet. I appreciate Hawkgrrrl’s question of, “What is the purpose of speaking up?” and agree with Ray’s thoughts on paying attention to inflection and phrase choice. I appreciate these both as a way to examine past experiences of when I have spoken up and to keep in mind as future comments & questions bubble up in future classes.

[Anonymous]

trill wrote:

I find that often times when I speak up in church the experience is rather disorienting. On the one hand, these are good experiences, because often my comments are responded to and supported in some way. On the other hand, they are negative because I wonder how or whether I should try to carve out a place amongst people who seem to think so differently than me.

…

I apologize for the length. In short, those are my experiences in regards to speaking up and keeping quiet. I appreciate Hawkgrrrl’s question of, “What is the purpose of speaking up?” and agree with Ray’s thoughts on paying attention to inflection and phrase choice. I appreciate these both as a way to examine past experiences of when I have spoken up and to keep in mind as future comments & questions bubble up in future classes.

Thanks for sharing those experiences. I’ve had similar experiences and have similar doubts about whether it is worth the effort to try to “carve out” a place among those who believe differently than I do.

[Anonymous]

hawkgrrrl wrote:

I also like to ask myself sometimes “What is the purpose of speaking up?” If the purpose is worthwhile and will have a good outcome, I do. But I don’t have to enlighten people with my wisdom 24/7.

Lately, I haven’t felt very wise, so maybe I do need to have you enlighten me with your wisdom 24/7…

[Anonymous]

I think – fopr me anyways – the fact that I am very compulsive in all I do – is maybe not so helpful

I am a recovering compulsive gambler – that was a tough thing to overcome – and I felt that the people at church couldnt help me as they had NO idea how to

It is not a slur against them – just no matter how hard they tried to sympathise they couldnt help me

So I found a GA group and despite not going to church for over a year – I have been clear of gambling for over a year also

So for me I NEED to know things more deeply

Say for example with no housework on sunday to “keep the sabbath holy”

My wife unfortunatly can not do a lot due to issues with her back

Now I dont mind doing the extra thats fine, BUt as we both work full time to keep the bills paid so we can be self sufficient, theres not a lot of time on weekdays to do chores.

So we like to go out and have time together at the weekend (saturdays normally)

then there would be church on sunday and then “keeping the sabbath holy” in the afternoon

My house wouldnt be kept clean as it needs to be

But they also say cleanliness is next to godliness

Also we are not supposed to carry out service at the weekend

In fact I was told off my a bishop for (after prayer) going to pick up some basics for a friend who was housebound after church

I am talking bread milk and cheese enough for a sandwich and a drink for that day literally!

I am not sure of where the passage is – but I have read something aout “ox in the mire” in the New Testament

Sorry its a bit long and babbly.

So why cant we speak up

surely its good to, question and find a deeper understanding and therefore a stronger faith

Or is faith really supposed to be blind

meh!

[Anonymous]

Fwiw, I view anything like those you describe as exceptions – as you said, the proverbial ox in the mire. (and if both of you can’t clean the house during the week or on Saturday, then Sunday it is. I’d suggest doing it together as “couple time”. *grin*)

The problem comes in when you talk publicly with others about it (not one-on-one or in a small group, but in church with everyone). Not everyone is in your particular situation, so it sounds to some (perhaps like your Bishop) that you are rationalizing an excuse and encouraging others to do what you do – clean the house on Sunday when they could be doing it some other day. Those who view it that way would be wrong, but it’s easy for people to make that leap.

Finally, I think it’s important to look at your motivation for talking about it in a church gathering. Serious question:

Are you doing so to gain approval because you aren’t confident in your decision – because you are feeling guilty?

My solution:

Become reconciled to the idea that we are allowed to make individual exceptions to general rules when they are necessary. I’d repeat that about 12 times if it would help you, but it’s critical. You don’t need permission to do what you have mentioned in this post. IT’S YOUR CALL. There is no need to discuss it in church – unless the lesson is about individual exceptions to general rules.

I hope that helps somehow.

[Author]

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