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I grew up in the church. I am the youngest of seven children all of whom were married in the temple. My parents have been on three proselyting missions. My Dad 81 makes 4 to 6 quilts a week which he sends to humanitarian aid. My parents always give new members and newly activated members to church. I mean always. Also, for historical perspective I am a forty one year old male. In some ways I have always been an nontraditional Mormon. I remember siting in primary one day and the teacher telling us that blacks were less valiant in the pre-existance. I did not have the guts to say anything, but I remember thinking that they were wrong. I argued loudly with my seminary teacher over how literal the blackness and whiteness of skin could be. I also argued about how the fall was not Eve’s fault.
On my mission in Ventura Californa I discovered that Mormon Doctrine and Jesus The Christ disagreed on whether Judas was a son of perdition. I decided that if the two book most of the people I know saw as the closes thing to scripture disagreed, than interpretation is totally up for grabs. From that point on in theological debates I had no qualms about arguing against Bruce R.’s point of view, Jame E.’s point of view, or anyone else s.
During a discussion with my second companion our investigator asked why blacks where not allowed to hold the priesthood until after 79. My senor companion explained that some people were less valiant in heaven. When we go home ask him not to share that explanation again if I was with him. He shared a copy a conference talk that backed him up. He than bore his testimony of this “doctrine”. I told him I did not believe it and I would be unable to sit quietly if he answered that way again. Fortunately this is a question we never received again.
Upon my return from my mission my best friend came out to me. I believed that his homosexuality was as real as my heterosexuality. I told myself that I was glad that I am not gay because I could never stay in the church. My friend was not LDS, but had taken the discussions and asked for a new Gospel Principles book because his was worn out.
I attended BYU way too long. I got two degrees in special ed there. I argued with religion profs that only saw things one way. Fortunately I had some that were straight up with questions on the Book of Abraham and Joseph Smith Polygamy.
I was married before I graduated. This is where my story could get very long. I will try to sum up. If anyone is interested in more detail you can read an essay on ldsapology.org entitled “Bloody Knuckles.” 14 years into my 16 year marriage my wife came out to me. I received a spiritual confirmation that God made her gay. This really started a change with my relationship with the church. I had long since believed in gay marriage. Fortunately, for many years my bishops read ambiguous letters saying vote for those measures that protect and preserve the family. I could say Gay marriage is the best way to protect family. At the time of prop 8 all this changed. I remember the day the bishop of my Oregon ward read the letter asking us to give of our time and means to fight for prop 8. In my Elders quorum presidency meeting I told my president and fellow councilor that I feel like an apostate today. I gave money to fight prop 8 and I stood holding a sign with the 11th article of faith at a prop 8 protest in my home town.
Now I live three blocks from my ex and her domestic partner. My kids and their mom attend the local Unitarian church. I attend both the LDS and Unitarian churches some times. I am supporting my ex finish her school. I choose to work my second job on Sundays. I am unable to give money to a church that is working to keep my childrens’ mom from marry the woman she loves. I no longer just get angry when I go to the Mormon church, but I also get nothing spiritual from it. I know being Mormon is a big part of who I am and how I see the world. I do not believe the Mormon church teaches my children to honor their Mother, some thing I want for them. My fifteen year old son has come out and I really do not believe the Mormon church is a healthy place for anyone gay. My parents and siblings are doing their best to love me the sinner, but hate my sins. I believe my sins are allowing my kids to attend another church, support my kinds mom in her homosexuality, and of course my apostate ideas.
Thanks for this opportunity to share a little about who I am as a Mormon.
Thanks for sharing your story Gail. What a journey you have been on… Welcome to the StayLDS community. People who have SSA and have Mormon heritage or are interested in the Church really are stuck with a difficult choice. I can’t blame them if they decide they need to distance themselves from the LDS community. I wish we could find a way, more as a whole community, to be inclusive. I just don’t think the bulk of the population is there yet. It will change I think. I’m not sure how that will happen or what it will look like, but this is an issue that is getting harder and harder to hide from. It helps IMO when people with your life experience and perspective stay IN the LDS community, when someone like you is standing there inside the community and can act as a bridge or ambassador in a sense.
We should be inclusive and welcoming to all.
Welcome to the board! You’ve experienced a LOT in your life. Thanks for sharing your story.
Just me, Thanks for the quotes.
Brian,
You have hit one of my struggles. I believe Mormonism is my culture, and being part of that culture I have a responsibility to effect that culture in positive ways. What I struggle with is How. I believe that the church has done all they can to make it make it very difficult to affect peoples attitudes on this issue. I have had people tell me it is just like blacks in the church. That it may have been difficult for a black person to be part of the church but it broke down barriers. I do believe bigotry is broken down the more people actually get to know people in a particular minority. When a black person came to church in the 70’s members may have gotten to know blacks for the first time, this brakes down barriers. But the church discourages homosexual members from coming out to their wards. I believe there are gay members in every unit of the church but how many members know there is a gay member of their ward? How many know that their home teacher or their Sunday school teacher is gay? Very few. I had a talk with my Bishop one day. He was apologizing for hurtful things that had been said in sacrament meeting. These things being said he did not believe were true. He did not stop them for being said. I ask what would you do as bishop if I bore my testimony on this subject, saying the things I have shared with you which you believe are true? He said he would have to stop me. This frustrates me.
I also believe the term SSA or SGA are a problem as well. Like the term collored for black it is not equivalent to the term used for the majority and therefore implies pathology. Elder Oaks introduced this term saying that if we use the term homosexual to describe a person it implies that they have no choice when it comes to sexual behavior. This is lunatic if it were true it would say that as a heterosexual man I have no choice but to have sex with women. Also it relegates these desires to something like your desire to eat chocolate or have a big mac. Sexual desires are something much more significant that other desires. Yes, we can choose our sexual behavior, but we do not choose our sexual orientation. Neither heterosexual or homosexual people choose their oriantation. The only time people in the church typically talk about homosexuals is when they talk about the evil homosexual agenda or the homosexuals are destroying the family. I am sorry, I could go on and on, but my question is how do I or a homosexual member effectively reach out and be that bridge or a positive influence in this culture?
I see the internet as a positive forum for this type of reaching out to change minds, but it seems very limited. We typically only reach like minded individuals using the internet. How do we persuade the religious right of the church? How do we expose them to the reality of the experience of their own homosexual brothers and sisters?
I think these are vital questions. We have a culture that drives three times the number of gay men to suicide than straight me. We have a culture that tells me as a straight man married to a gay woman that if I had faith I never would have divorced. I should have continued a relationship that did not work. I should have turned my back on the happiness of the woman I love as well as my happiness, but most importantly the happiness of our children. How do we help our church and our fellow members she how our system is fundamentally broken in regards to sexual orientation or gender identity?
Welcome Gail, I so glad that you joined us. I totally understand where you are coming from (very cliche). I have always heard the motto, “God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change”, . . . . . but, I have my own motto:
“God grant me the tenacity to change the things I cannot accept”.
The first quote is passive, the second is active.
Now, I have always been taught by the Prophets that, “The Lord is at the Helm” and that He lead and guides this church through revelation given to a living Prophet. Great, I’m grateful that we have a true, living Prophet of God. I believe that a living Prophet can receive revelation for the entire Church and even the entire world. My problem comes with this personal belief that Prophets of God can and do make mistakes. Which Prophet – all of them. Prophets are not omniscient (all-knowing)
Omniscient is an interesting word:
having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
This attribute seems to appear only in God. The Prophets do not have a complete understanding – none of us do. We are all somewhere on the learning curve. Issues such as racism, sexism and sexuality are extremely complex. I have had a great desire to teach members of the Church about the new biochemistry and molecular biology of sexual development, sexual differentiation and sexual orientation. New concepts and theories such as “Androgen Imprinting” of the developing fetus are fascinating fields of study. So far we have identified genes for Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome (no testosterone receptors in males), 5 alpha reductase deficiency (can’t convert testosterone to biologically active form), congenital adrenal hyperplasia (little girls whose adrenal glands produce massive amounts of testosterone), X inactivation syndrome and the list goes on and on. I work in an Endocrinology Lab. It tested thousands of testosterone and estrogen samples. Oh,I have sooooo stopped judging people. I can’t even believe that I was once so judgmental and bigoted.
It was knowledge of things like Klinefelter’s Syndrome (XXY) that saved me. Society was judging these people as gay, queer, evil – the poor guy have two full sized X chromosomes and a little piece of a Y chromosome (Klinefelters Syndrome Variant). We can’t give this guy testosterone because his family has a history of prostate and ovarian cancer and the testosterone injections will increase his risk. He can’t have a male mastectomy to correct gynemastia (male breasts) because he has clotting factor 8 deficiency and would bleed to death during surgery. So meanwhile, the Church is condemning these guys, people are insulting them and calling them “fags”.
I am almost ready to submit my resignation from the Church because I am so fed up with the homophobia. God grant me the tenacity to change the things I can’t accept. I will either change this, or I will be excommunicated trying. It is as simple as that.
SSA and SGA are problem terms? I am not a huge fan of labeling people, but what is a sensitive descriptor when this sexual orientation characteristic is a relevant fact in the conversation? (sincere question) MWallice57, There is so much that the church’s doctrine would choose to ignore, like Klienfelders. So what are you doing to change the church?
Brian,
I do not think there are social sensitivity problems when we use words like heterosexual or straight in the church. I believe there should be non for using the terms homosexual or gay. I refuse to use any other terms and I am trying to have my fellow church members feel as comfortable with them as heterosexual and straight.
I sent and e-mail to Elder Christensen after his homophobic remarks at the Evergreen conference this fall. I received an e-mail from some staffer that said he was assigned to deal with this issue. I e-mailed him a couple of times then called him. We spoke for 45 minutes. I explained my issue with the term SSA. By the end of the conversation he started using the terms homosexual and gay, at least for me. It is not that every time he said SSA I corrected him. I explained once and then just used the other terms. I believe homosexual and gay are socially sensitive. The non socially sensitive thing is our Mormon culture.
I never really liked the term “gay.” It seems like a very dated word that was used to talk about the subject without having to acknowledge the idea, being unmentionable in “polite” society. SSA always seemed to me to encompass a broad view of the topic, including not just sexuality by also non-sexual attraction. I can see how the term seems a bit clinical though, thus implying a defect (like a medical problem or something).
I prefer the term, “human being”, I so dislike labels and terms that define us on the basis of gender and sexuality. Our culture seems to worship the false gods of gender and sexuality and this concept of gender worship is being drilled into our heads. Women aren’t beautiful unless they have breast implants and liposuction. Men are supposed to used prescription drugs to enhance performance. Sorry to be so blunt, but it is clear what or society worships. I think of Christ as the “Gold Standard” and the one and only one we should worship and strive to emulate. When one accepts Christ as the “Gold Standard” we accept his admonition to “esteem our brother as our self”. I don’t want to be defined or labeled by my gender and sexuality. Yea, I could think of myself as a post-menopausal women, past her child baring years with a few too many gray hairs. Is that how I want people to define me? The Quaker Society of Friends addresses members as “friend” which is a very gender neutral term. That term gives me such a wonderful feeling of acceptance and equality. Christ also used that term, “friend”, so many times. “You are my friends, if you do what I say”. Oh, that is so beautiful!! It implies that our relationship to Christ isn’t about our gender, it is about our obedience to the Lord.
I have also noticed that when I begin to see men as human beings and cultivate true friendships with them, I have a richer and deeper understanding of them as spiritual beings. When I see them only in terms of their gender, sexuality and marital status, I lose sight of who they really are are people. I also wish that men would stop viewing women in terms of gender, sexuality, marital status etc. I love simply being addressed as “friend”.
This is a quote from John, Chapter 15, King James Version of the Bible: As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
10: If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.
11: These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.
12: This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13: Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14: Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
15: Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16: Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
17: These things I command you, that ye love one another.
Suppose that we all committed to obey the Lord and totally live the law of chastity and moral purity. We could then refer to each other as “friends” as Christ referred to those who were obedient to Him. I also love they way that Christ treated women with titles of respect and equality. He did not think of them as “servants”, but “friends”. How beautiful.
I use whatever terms the people with whom I’m talking use, as long as they are not being used as pejoratives. Let’s not turn this introduction into a discussion of what terms are politically correct, please.
As to the original post, I believe there is much room for continued movement in the Church toward more open acceptance of homosexuality and homosexual members. I don’t think, however, that there is any chance that the Church will be more “liberal” toward homosexual members than it is toward heterosexual members – meaning that if a straight member can’t do it, a gay or lesbian member won’t be allowed to do it.
My hope for the near future, plain and simple, is that all those things that heterosexual, non-married members can do without facing church disicipline, homosexual members will be able to do without facing such discipline. I would be totally fine with that for now.
I get all that MWallace, but there are almost 7 billion human beings on this planet. Sometimes we have to bring up individual characteristics if we want to understand each other on deeper levels beyond being part of the same genus and species. For example, I am (to list a few):
Bald
Male
Caucasian of European decent
A Mormon in the LDS Church
A resident of the United States
Married
A father
and one other characteristic happens to be that I am heterosexual
These are all labels that transmit useful information about me to other human beings.
Brian, You make great points. I do believe that is how the term gay did get started, but it know has a different meaning, one that has been fully embraced by most homosexuals themselves.
I think of Albus Dumbledore. He told Harry “Always use the proper name for things. Fear of a name increases fear of the thing itself.” I think it is true. If Mormons are afraid to even say homosexuality, homosexual, gay, or anything like it in polite company we will always fear the concept and the people.
MWallace57, Thank you. I love what you have said about addressing one another as friends. I have very rich friendships with people of both genders and sexual orientations. I believe you are right in that we view each other way too much in our culture, Mormon and American, through our gender and sexual rolls. I do not see post metaposal or gray hair as a negative discripter, but they certainly do not reveal anything about the true nature of a person. You are completely correct that often we use labels that tell us little or nothing about who a person is. I work with many adults with developmental disabilities. What most people don’t think about is that using their disability as a discripter tells you nothing about what they like, dislike, what they do in their spare time, what they choose to talk about, what kind of friend they are, or what they do for a living. I personally have dyslexia or am dyslexic. I really don’t believe this tells you much about myself. It does tell you some. I do not think any of us want to be known or restricted by one charismatic.
I wonder though what language helps our Mormon culture demystify the reality of more then one narrow sexual orientation and more than two sexual identities?
Ray, It also agree that homosexuals and heterosexuals should be treated the same in the church. The question is what is meant by that.
The Church claims that they do that now. Heterosexual members and Homosexual members are under disciplinary action for engaging in romantic association with those of the same sex. They are both allowed to be part of an opposite sex marriage and both forbidden to be part of a same sex marriage.
I personally do not believe this is equal treatment. Heterosexual members are free to be open about their orientation. Even celibrate it. Homosexuals are not.
Thank you,
Gail
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