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Interesting discussion. Our early prophets, BY especially, were pretty clear when warning us about “fitting in with the world”. IMHO, if you’re not being persecuted because of your religion…you aint’ doin it right.
I don’t like taking things out of context but, for the sake of brevity, Section 85 speaks of the eventual coming of “one mighty and strong” to “set in order the house of God”. I submit that if the house of God isn’t first “out of order” then there would be no need.
There is, indeed, a division that seems to be widening quickly between conservative mormons and liberal mormons….internet mormons and chapel mormons….TBM’s and NOM’s….etc… not to mention us nutty fundamentalists.
The division probably always existed to an extent but the internet has allowed such a free flow of information that it has increased the speed of the division. I wish the day would hurry up that we come to a “unity of the faith”. I unfortunately doubt that it will happen before there is a fairly significant falling away, however. I sincerely hope I’m incorrect.
I don’t think it’s any secret, or even a taboo subject, to acknowledge that the trend of the Church since the 1st manifesto has been to be more and more accomodating to the world. In a way….if you’re goal is growth…you have to be.
I don’t know what it’s going to take to bring us all together. Someone a heck of a lot more insightful than I am once said something to the effect that ” the Lord will return no sooner than there is a people ready for Him”. That’s pretty spooky to me in that I don’t see a “people ready for Him” on earth. I don’t think that a fragmented church will cut it. A few thousand fundamentalists trying to live watered-down versions of the United Order? … probably not.
It’s tough…of course the fundamentalist view is that the “mother” church and the “father” priesthood will be reunited. It seems to me as that would take someone coming up through the ranks of the GA’s to be a bit more accomodating. I certainly don’t see it happening anytime soon. Once again…I hope I’m full of it.
Fundamentalist ramblings….
Usual disclaimers…
Bruce, you’ve hinted in several places that something is gonna be happening sooner than later. Just thought I’d let you know I’m listening. Tom
I understand, mwallace – which is why I separated what you actually said from the quote itself. I really do loathe the quote, but I don’t object to your comment – and I never thought YOU were trying to send the multiple messages that could be taken from the quote. I’m sorry that wasn’t clearer. I tried to say it, but probably didn’t say it clearly enough.
Bruce in Montana wrote:Interesting discussion.
Our early prophets, BY especially, were pretty clear when warning us about “fitting in with the world”. IMHO, if you’re not being persecuted because of your religion…you aint’ doin it right.
I think you bring up an interesting point Bruce. On the one hand, I don’t really like the idea that the church seems to be moving more mainstream, to fit in, as it were (although I’m not claiming that is their motive). I have often thought it strange that we want to be called Christian. Sure according to the definition we are, but according to traditional Christianity they think we’re not. I’m good with that. I don’t feel any pressing need to have them understand.OTOH, I don’t like the idea that we somehow have to be persecuted to represent the truth. The persecution complex is a beautiful self-fulfilling prophecy that does not serve as an indication of the truth IMHO. In fact, quite the opposite. It seems to feed on itself, and as wackier and wackier ideas are presented and more people find them ridiculous, the more we feel self-righteous persecution.
I agree that a persecution complex is a dangerous thing. In my experience, persecution, when analyzed impartially or introspectively, usually ends up looking like a plain old fight. In our LDS history, this seems to hold true. We trumpet Haun’s Mill, Liberty Jail, Carthage, and Far West. We whisper about Crooked River, Fanny Alger, the Utah Reformation horrors, and Mountain Meadows. To me, this is why Jesus said, “Blessed are ye when men shall revile you, and persecute you and say all manner of evil against you falsely [and you bear it nobly] for my sake.” I think he was telling us to quit, for once, fighting back. He was, without being in our faces, showing us the way to peace. If we “know” we are in the right, and we nonetheless bear our “persecution” in patience without retaliation, it will change our world. Without Crooked River, Fanny Alger, the Utah Reformation horrors, and Mountain Meadows, there would likely have been no Haun’s Mill, Liberty Jail, Carthage, and Far West.
Bruce in Montana wrote:There is, indeed, a division that seems to be widening quickly between conservative mormons and liberal mormons….internet mormons and chapel mormons….TBM’s and NOM’s….etc… not to mention us nutty fundamentalists.
The division probably always existed to an extent but the internet has allowed such a free flow of information that it has increased the speed of the division.Indeed, I have also seen “a division that seems to be widening.” I have read stories of active members leaving because of something they read on the internet.
I read this comment at another site yesterday:
Quote:I don’t understand all of these members that say they are active members of the church, yet they disagree with half of what the church teaches.
I have noticed this trend and believe that in the future (how many years in the future I do not know), the church may be split into at least two groups: Orthodox Mormons and Reform Mormons. There is Orthodox Judaism, Conservative Judaism and Reform Judaism. Is it unlikely this will happen in Mormonism?
Quote:spacious maze said….I’m not sure about the relationship with homosexuality within the church, I think the church will eventually follow the will of the country.
I suspect the church will follow the will of the country about the same way God intervened in Sodom & Gomorrah, meaning they will leave it to God. I keep wondering if I will live long enough to see missionaries sent only to the Jews, or what will clear parts of the country around the Mississippi, or the three events that will happen around the N.Y. area. So much has happened the last two years it’s exciting to get up each day just to see whats going to happen next. One thing you will see, the church and it’s people are as well prepared as any people on earth to organize to meet emergencies.
The Church will ablsolutely have to bend to the “will of the country” regarding homosexuality. The Church is a corporation.
In a capitalist society, the only way a corporation can continue to exist is to grow.
In order to grow among secularism, one must make concessions if your doctine is anti-secular.
We saw it with plural marriage.
We saw it with blacks in the priesthood.
We’re witnessing it with the gays.
I’m not sure what will be the next biggie but I would guess it would be women in the priesthood.
My guess only…..
I think I see things exactly like Bruce, in those areas. I see the tipping point approaching in a few ways:
More stay at home dads, “breaking” the construct of “dad works, mom stays home”.
The notion that “ideal” parenting requires a male and a female, biologically. This is already a defunct concept: children need quality time with a parent, regardless of biological gender.
If the first two concepts become accepted, finally the third: same-sex female parents won’t have “the priesthood in the home”. As has been mentioned elsewhere on this forum, the idea of a “male-only” priesthood in the origins of the church was ambiguous, as is the idea of “male-only” priesthood in the current temple practice.
food for thought, I guess…
😳 Quote:I think I see things exactly like Bruce, in those areas.
Ya’ gotta admit, that last qualifier is important when agreeing with Bruce.😆 😆 I resemble that remark.😆 Quote:Captain curmudgeon said….I expect the church to come to better terms with homosexuality fairly soon. I see two trends here. The first is that it’s easier for gay people to come out, even Mormons. The second is that general authorities are getting slightly younger and at some point they will be in close touch with grandchildren and children who are gay.
One message I keep picking up on these threads is that the evolution of the church is happening not because it was restored by a visitation from God, but the voices seem to mostly be saying, it’s just like any other organazation, it seems to be analyzed purely from the human perspective, and the part about God is lightly brushed over.
My perspective is that this is God’s church, and I feel like a salmon swimming against the swift moving stream of unbelief. Yes I know this is a blog that is for the purpose of helping the inactive (me), and those who have questions about all manner of things. I guess what i’m getting at is I would like a little more pick me up, and I do enjoy all the great things that are being said, I guess i feel the negitives are far out weighing the positives.
The french poet Remy de Gourmont said this ” The terrible thing about the quest for truth is that you might find it.”
I have found, for me, an important piece of truth, I want to add to it. I know, I agreed to come to this world, I don’t know if I agreed to like it. I know we become the product of all that we think and say and desire and do. I like this forum, and I like lots of new thoughts and accepting that we are all at a different place in our heads, and yes I know I often say things that are also downers. So maybe i’ll just shut up and try harder to to ride this bucking bronc of a world, heck, maybe tomorrow I’ll just feel stupid for rambleing on so much.
jeriboy, fwiw, I personally believe there is LOTS of stuff that seeped into the Church from the Great Christian Apostasy (or rushed in pell-mell) with the early converts who gained a testimony of the Restored Gospel but brought their prejudices and age-old beliefs with them. When I read the Allegory of the Olive Tree in Jacob 5, I am struck particularly by the last part which talks about the “final pruning”. If you read those verses carefully, it is OBVIOUS that this final pruning is an internal pruning of the Church – casting out the bad fruit that is within it ONLY at the speed that the root is able to bear. My own take on this is that the false traditions of OUR fathers will be removed slowly, bit by bit, bitter fruit by bitter fruit – not any faster than the general church membership can bear it. I believe that is why the Priesthood ban took so long to be lifted – that the Lord waited to give the revelation until the Church as a whole was ready to receive it. I believe that is why it took so long for “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” to speak openly about fathers and mothers being equal partners who share responsibilities to help each other within the other’s “primary” role – replacing the older, clearly defined division of labor in marriage. I believe that is why it took so long for the word “grace” to be used as openly as it is now. Etc., etc., etc.
I personally don’t see it as bowing to pressure from the outside as much as waiting until the membership is on board. I don’t know if the Church will ever perform gay sealings in the temple, since I think that would require an OD2-level revelation. However, I believe endowed women already have priesthood power, so it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if I live to see the day when they can participate in ordinances outside the temple as well as in it. It wouldn’t surprise me if that doesn’t happen in my lifetime, either. I just can see the possibility – as I can see the possibility of the Church recognizing civilly married gay couples as not breaking the Law of Chastity if they remain celibate outside of such a legally recognized marriage. I personally don’t support gay marriage but rather civil unions, but I can see the possibility of the Church agreeing to honor civil unions / marriages without opening temple sealings.
I have no idea if any of these possibilities are God’s will – if they constitute the removal of bitter fruit from the vineyard, but I do believe in the process and the principle of the pruning – and I view it quite differently than many members do.
Thanks Ray your words were uplifting… Quote:Old-Timer said…I am struck particularly by the last part which talks about the “final pruning”. If you read those verses carefully, it is OBVIOUS that this final pruning is an internal pruning of the Church – casting out the bad fruit that is within it ONLY at the speed that the root is able to bear.
Ray, question? the above reminded me of a question I have been searching for for over 25 years. I think it’s in the D&C about the difficulties that will spread round the world beginning at the Lord’s house. A friend of mine thinks that was fullfilled when the saints were driven from Missouri. If anything has ever been said from higher up I would love to hear it, from anybody, thanks.
jeriboy wrote:I agreed to come to this world, I don’t know if I agreed to like it.
That is what I believe too.
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