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The more I look into the church the more I question what substance does it really have. The things it claims as as wonderful and necessary are things of its own creation or things borrowed from other religions. Temples for example are only wonderful if there really are dead people waiting for some hand waiving gestures to be done that somehow transforms their status in the here after. The professors of morality in the church are really only needed if god really cares about bare shoulders on women. The priesthood only exists if god really cares about some kind of burecratic system of governance.
When speaking with a friend recently about the church be spoke of the atonement and how wonderful it was. I said I do not think there is such a thing as sin so no atonement necessary. He had no answer other than to disagree.
My point is all the supposed great things of the church are a system of the church creating a need that does not exist and then providing a solution to the mythical need. Where is the value in that? Why pay homage to a belief system that is more about the hype of its product than actual need of its product?
At least some other religions run soup kitchens and shelters along with their belief structure. Our focus seems to be real estate deals and business enterprises. Other than a few progressive things the church may do the majority of it efforts are nothing more than process to perpetuate itself.
I say where’s the beef?
Haha. You need an image to go along with that. Angel’s Advocate:
Temples – there might not be any dead people waiting on the other side but the illusion can help the living reinforce their bonds with deceased loved ones. It’s a way to remember people that are no longer with us and to the believer it’s a way to serve them.
Priesthood – it might give someone a bit of confidence or inspiration to act, like Dumbo’s feather.
I read a lengthy post on puremormonism that echoes some of your comments,
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2014/06/uncomfortable-god.html ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2014/06/uncomfortable-god.html The part that leapt out at me was:
Quote:At my church, 90% of what we do is incestuous service;
And unfortunately I have to agree. Callings create so much busy work and it mostly only serves the saints. We’re too busy or worn down to do service for people that truly need help in our communities. IMO that blog post probably deserves its own thread. Sorry for the side track, I just thought it was in line with some of your comments.
But to answer your question… Maybe it’s under the pickle.
Scurries off to create a Got Milk? thread…
😈 Cadence wrote:The more I look into the church the more I question what substance does it really have.
The things it claims as as wonderful and necessary are things of its own creation or things borrowed from other religions…The professors of morality in the church are really only needed if god really cares about bare shoulders on women. The priesthood only exists if god really cares about some kind of burecratic system of governance… My point is all the supposed great things of the church are a system of the church creating a need that does not exist and then providing a solution to the mythical need. Where is the value in that?Why pay homage to a belief system that is more about the hype of its product than actual need of its product?…At least some other religions run soup kitchens and shelters along with their belief structure. Our focus seems to be real estate deals and business enterprises. Other than a few progressive things the church may do the majority of it efforts are nothing more than process to perpetuate itself… I say where’s the beef?Good question; the Church definitely makes a lot of future promises that for all we know could never actually materialize in order to justify significant real-life sacrifices here and now and like you said they have elaborate stories about why the priesthood, atonement, temple ordinances, etc. are supposedly necessary that are not very meaningful as soon as people step back and seriously consider the possibility that this could easily be nothing more than man-made mythology from the outset. To me it looks like the Church relies way too much on fear, shame, guilt-trips, peer pressure, a false sense of obligation because it supposedly came directly from God, and other manipulative tactics to get around the fact that it currently asks for and takes so much from the average follower without providing anywhere near equal value in return in most cases. I guess if it makes people feel better to belong to a special group and think they have the answers then there is some value in that as well as other possible benefits of Church membership but the problem is that the total costs in terms of time, money, effort, guilt-trips, etc. are so high that it would take a lot to really outweigh all that for the average Church member.
The sealed portion of the gold plates. Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
All I can say is I don’t find any value in the way you choose to look at it. Some people express their views in terms of necessity, I view my religion in terms of opportunities for personal growth. Cadence wrote:Temples for example are only wonderful if there really are dead people waiting for some hand waiving gestures to be done that somehow transforms their status in the here after.
I disagree. Temples are useful for periods of contemplation and allowing insight into how I can grow into a more complete and loving person. The focus on uniting the human race can also be productive. It is all symbolic, that is its usefulness.
Cadence wrote:The priesthood only exists if god really cares about some kind of burecratic system of governance.
I disagree. The priesthood represents a power to bless, an opportunity for service. It also plays into the model of a united humanity and there are many symbols that can be deeply meaningful and have nothing to do with exclusive rights to act in the name of God.
You can choose to look for mythical needs if that is what motivates you, or you can look for something deeper when you grow out of enjoying the wading pool.
It is always up to you. That is why I find Mormonism fulfilling, there is so much to explore that few members ever talk about.
You mean like this. 
http://youtu.be/FZ12Ry-hD6Ihttp://youtu.be/FZ12Ry-hD6I” class=”bbcode_url”> Seriously, I understand your point though. It all depends on a lot of things. For a typical Sunday experience and lessons, ya it’s hard when you have been in places or around people that teach how to be a better human in a significantly more relatable, compressible, for-filling and non dogmatic way with most if the negative side effects. But Mormonism is where I grew up and my aim is that if it’s important to the people I care about its important to me.
Having said that though, I now have had way to many experiences with people and places that do a far better job at helping people be thrive and help and understand each other better. So I go there for my “beef” and am much happier and less stressed while doing so. But I don’t expect to find beef in the church, much of the “beef” is in things and deeds almost usually not taught or quoted in church. The “beef” if you will is spread out across many people and places and times. There is very little “beef” I’m any one place or institution, but in human and animal and earth interaction. But I grew of up Mormon so know many people that look solely to it for all life’s needs and meanings. Th beef is in helping them connect with what ever their needs are inside Mormonism.
Quote:“If you want things to be different, perhaps the answer is to become different yourself.” -Norman Vincent Peale
Quote:“A belief is only a thought you continue to think. A belief is nothing more than a chronic pattern of thought, and you have the ability -if you try even a little bit- to begin a new pattern, to tell a new story, to achieve a different vibration, to change your point of attraction.” ~ Abraham-Hicks
Quote:We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. Albert Einstein
Quote:The pursuit of happiness is not uniquely American either—in a study of more than 10,000 participants from 48 countries, psychologists Ed Diener of the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and Shigehiro Oishi of the University of Virginia discovered that people from every corner of the globe rated happiness as being more important than other highly desirable personal outcomes, such as having meaning in life, becoming rich, and getting into heaven.
What does this statement tell you about where the “beef” is? People across the globe attending various religious but still seeking happiness? Apparently it isn’t being for-filed there but it’s often attributed as being the case.On the other hand many feel compelled to go out of fear or shame or obligation, believing that it will make them happier but ultimately no real difference in long term happiness.
I think those that are actually happy are the ones that are happy without religion to begin with. They go for other reasons like contracting and experiencing(experience is well studied to be much more important to people looking for a religion then actual beliefs of that religion). How they think and feel inside the service and after contemplating about how it made them feel about it.
The “beef” for most people then would be in the experience and not the principles or beliefs. Weather they had a good experience of feeling or bad. Which means there is a severe disconnect in some religions promoting beliefs and principles and what their adherents are looking for often.
Thank you FC, well said. Cadence, as an admin, I have to ask: Why did you write this post? What was your purpose?
This post is full of dismissive phrasing that is HIGHLY offensive and insulting to orthodox members and that makes blanket, absolutist statements with which you have to know many people here disagree, based on your long-time involvement here.
We know, based on your own comments in multiple threads, that you are not a believer – in pretty much anything that religion teaches. This is a site for people who want to remain involved, to whatever extent is possible, in or with the LDS Church.
So, how does this post contribute to our mission?
Cadence wrote:Temples for example are only wonderful if there really are dead people waiting for some hand waiving gestures to be done that somehow transforms their status in the here after.
I think of temples as the rough equivalent of headstones and funerals. They are not beneficial to the dead but perform an important function for the living.
I think the beef is in how it helps youth find structure and meaning during their confusing years. It’s helped my daughter significantly. She has values, and they are independent of us, our parents. She even disapproves of me in certain ways. Sounds strange, but I admire it because she has our own belief system now that drives these small areas of disapproval. And of course, I have been “on guard” to help her filter out judgmentalism, to filter out class structure in the church, and to help her see her life’s mission doesn’t have to be to create children to further the growth of the church.
The beef is in the people around you and what it takes to help them be happy. The beef in the church doctrine is yours to pick and choose. Right now, the church is a veggie burger and does not satisfy…
Old-Timer wrote:Cadence, as an admin, I have to ask:
Why did you write this post? What was your purpose?
This post is full of dismissive phrasing that is HIGHLY offensive and insulting to orthodox members and that makes blanket, absolutist statements with which you have to know many people here disagree, based on your long-time involvement here.
We know, based on your own comments in multiple threads, that you are not a believer – in pretty much anything that religion teaches. This is a site for people who want to remain involved, to whatever extent is possible, in or with the LDS Church.
So, how does this post contribute to our mission?
Seemed like a reasonable question. But since you and I are rarely if ever in agreement I am not surprised by you response. If this site is for fostering some kind of belief in the church you are correct I am beyond that. I believe I am beyond what this site has to offer in general. Time to move on perhaps.
Quote:“If this site is for fostering some kind of belief in the church you are correct I am beyond that.”
That’s not what I said (
not anywhere close), and you’ve been around long enough not to put words in my mouth or mis-state the purpose of this site so egregiously. I usually am smiling when I type a comment like that, but I’m not smiling this time. You’ve been around too long to butcher what I say that badly. Cadence — do you still go to church? I’m also curious about your family — do any of them attend, and what is the state of their belief?
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