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I was browsing another forum and reading stories from inactive and ex-members who were involved with emergency services and the temple. Most of these stories involved EMS or PD trying to get past the front desk, only to be denied by the temple president or other worker because of lack of recommend. They would threaten arrest and finally get through to the person who fainted, go injured or otherwise was the source of the call, only for it to be “too late” and require CPR or pronounce dead. The few notes that bothered me:
– The temple president or worker refusing entrance would excuse their behavior as protecting the house of the Lord from worldly influences
– One of the stories included the TP asking why they needed to perform CPR, him insisting that no one dies in the house of the Lord
– Some MP would yell at or refuse to assist the EMS/PD in locating the victim, stating that if they died it was their time.
Certainly these are just a percentage of the stories. Certainly there are stories where the temple workers assist the medical team and they save lives.
But the justification and willingness to break the law / follow a non-clarifying and uncertain detail about the post-mortal life over thee modern day needs of mortality just don’t add up for me and give the church a bad name.
So my question:
When is the excuse that “they were meant to die” or “if God wants them, why stop him?” a valid reason to delay or not get assistance from certified medial professionals? When is it ‘God’s will’ to utilize these people to give someone a chance to live?
I am someone who has lost a lot of faith in the church this past year and while i certainly respect my friends being active, these stories and others continue to support my desire to possibly leave. Which is why i ponder which excuse is more valid.
These stories run contrary to what I would expect to happen in an emergency medical situation in a temple. I will withhold judgement until presented with more evidence.
When is it okay to use those excuses to disallow medical attention to someone who needs it? In short, never. However, as with anything else, when you ask a question of a wide group of people, you will get a wide range of responses. There are those in the church who might respond to an emergency as you described, while there are many others who are more level-headed and would disagree with the over-zealous folks who would block an EMT from performing their job. In any organization there will always be people who are more extreme in their beliefs than others. Unfortunately, those extremists, even though they are in the minority, can do a great deal of damage.
I question those stories strongly. I personally think they are either urban legends or experiences from a LONG time ago with one temple or temple leader. I won’t accuse anyone of lying without reading the accounts myself, but I suspect strongly they are not accurate. I have been a temple coordinator. The are NO such restrictions in ANY of the instructions we have as temple workers. If there is a medical emergency, the temple calls 911. Patrons clear the room and go somewhere else that is out of the way. A few temple officials dressed in suits remain in the room and observe the removal of the person having the emergency. Nobody interferes or restricts help in any way.
If what is being said happens, it is being done against the direct instructions of the LDS Church. Period.
I also question the stories as urban legend. I have a non-member relative who is on a volunteer emergency squad and lives near a temple. He has actually been there on a call and it was pretty much as Curt described. He also told me they have a layout of the building (it’s one of the small temples) and that before the dedication they, along with other local firefighters and police officers) were given a special tour of the building before its dedication to show them where certain things were and that there are other times where some have been let in to check certain systems (during the cleaning times). In answer to your questions, I am sure there are people who believe that if something is God’s will it’s going to happen regardless of what we do. I am not particularly one of them, and when it comes to medical things I don’t think most members fall in that category (but I could be wrong because it’s not a conversation I usually have). I think most members believe God gave us medical science and advances on purpose for our benefit, and I think that’s quasi-doctrine although I personally don’t believe it is doctrine. I also believe in death with dignity, and sometimes taking extraordinary measures to prolong a life of misery is unwarranted – but that is a personal and family decision, not one to be made by a church leader and in such a case it is unlikely the person would be in the temple to begin with.
I will use my grandfather as an example. He was 86 when he died, had a good productive and active life and had a short period of declining health, which included a form of leukemia, right before his death. He died at home with family present. He likely could have been revived with CPR, but we all knew that was not his desire nor was it ours. We watched as he passed in peace. People mourn in many different ways and stages. Some said it was his time, some said they were happy because he wasn’t suffering any more and was at peace, some just cried (and some didn’t). No matter what they said or what they used to console themselves, we all thought he died the way he wanted to and with dignity.
One final side note, some of your comments remind me of some of the nuts who don’t get their relatives (especially children) proper medical care because they believe they can pray away whatever it is. I do believe miracles can happen – but they are few and far between and I do believe parents in a situation like that should be charged with neglect, abuse, etc.
Agree with the other comments – I would question the validity of those stories. Disgruntled people often exaggerate or contrive stories for effect. :problem: 1 – if those stories were true, we would have heard of many, many lawsuits against the church for the alleged preventable deaths.
2 – my husband is a firefighter and is 100% positive that situations like you described would never happen. Period.
3 – my mom was a temple worker and her stories agree with Curt (likely a different temple) that during emergencies, the veil comes down (if that room is where the emergency is) and emergency workers are quickly shown into the temple.
It’s fun to buy in to hype, but be careful that you consider the source before you also become excited.
It is no great secret many of our temple patrons are very elderly, which carries a large risk. Most problems seem.to be age related. However, I did raise this question with a friend who is a temple worker. He says if there was a serious fire, or even an attack, emergency services would be let in. He says he knows of people who have died in there, including a widow who was doing work for her husband.
Normally the plan is to be discreet and to try not to alarm people and disrupt any other activity. I think that is respectful. Emergency services may come through the canteen, and go up by elevator.
There are always people in our temple trained in First Aid. If possible, they try to move people to the entrance. Outside the kitchen, potential injuries tend to be rare – some people fall, but the frail use elevators. As such, people have conditions which give them some warning. I have heard of people hurting their back in the font but that is a) avoidable and b) not life threatening.
The police rarely if ever go into our temple. We do have some members who are serving or retired policemen.
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