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church0333, I approached my mission as an attempt to find people for whom our teachings would resonate and for whom joining the Church would make a real difference in their lives. I didn’t try to convince anyone of anything. As to your questions, I think it all depends on how we individually view God. The thing that gives me the most peace about the questions is the core concept that every person will be judged according to how they tried to live according to their own conscience (and kept trying to change and grow when they recognized mistakes and weaknesses, no matter their “success rate”) – and that the judgment will be overseen by someone(s) who truly, deeply, “parentally” love(s) them and who has/have all eternity to be patient and long-suffering before declaring it is finished.
That is how I see God, so that is my faith – and the overall theology of Mormonism is about the only place where that is taught within Christianity, even if it isn’t understood by so many members.
My faith has certainly evolved to be more like yours Curtis and I do believe we will be judged more on living the two great commandments than anything else. However, I get Church333’s point and that is church doctrine. It was indeed part of my FC – that I would be held to a higher standard and perhaps denied the CK simply because I was a member of the church while those who were involved with the evil that perpetuated the FC might just get to the CK because they had less given them. It has been a very long road overcoming that idea, and frankly I’m still not completely over it because of how it’s ingrained. I did find myself wishing I had never joined the church and that idea was indeed part of my consideration when I was thinking of name removal. I approached my mission differently as well, and I never used the phrase “sharing the gospel.” I did wholly believe it was my job to convert people, not to teach the gospel. In retrospect and if I had it to do over I’d do it much differently. I agree with your prior post that no tracting/street contacting might miss some people, but I think statistics show there are very few of them anyway. If we really do believe God prepares people to hear the gospel (as many missionaries do but I don’t), those people will be found regardless. In my own mission, which was a very low baptizing one, I found service to be very important – those we served and served with were much more likely to join the church and stay, as were people who were good friends with members. Regardless of which pair of missionaries is there for service,the service persists, and changing missionaries in the situation actually helps, I believe, because others have the opportunity to see the same in others (and it lessens the conversion to the missionaries as opposed to the church).
I get the point, also, DJ – and I agree that the concerns express a dominant thought among lots of members. I didn’t mean to dismiss anything in my response; I just don’t worry about the questions, personally. I simply don’t accept anything that says joining or not joining the Church is good or bad, universally. I am very happy, overall, in the Church – and if someone needs what we teach and practice, long-term or short-term, I believe joining is a good thing and will encourage it. If not, not. I don’t lose sleep over it – and this site is about finding ways to figure out our own answers and be at peace with them, even if they are different than others’ answers. I don’t have to accept any common views if they don’t work for me, and accepting that simple paradigm change can make all the difference in my happiness and joy.
DJ, I agree that the two great commandments of loving God and being good to others are the only commandments that really matter with all that they would include and I am learning to live with that. On the other hand I think that the church sees things way different. Those commandments hardly count at all. The TR does not really touch on those much at all either. On the surface, the people at church look at the do’s and don’t’s more than what is in a person’s heart but I guess that I understand that is a lot easier to judge. The missionaries come to dinner about every other month and give a lesson and ask for names of people top contact and we have given them some but only because of the pressure we feel do do so. As a couple we have discussed this and in truth even in my most more believing days it was hard to come up with people because our friends outside of the church are good people and live good lives and they seem happy and it is hard to tell them that they are wrong and need my truths to make them happy. I am really not all that happy right now and would not wish these feelings of confusion on anyone. I do agree that service is a great thing to give and find that is one of the reasons that I am staying with the church for now. There are also really good people and friends at church, but I guess that could be said about most churches. Quote:On the other hand I think that the church sees things way different. Those commandments hardly count at all.
I think that’s unfair, church0333. I think people generally feel like the rules are a way to show love – and that there have to be actions involved in order to exhibit real love – that “love” is meaningless without actions. Personally, I believe strongly that love that is only expressed and not shown through action is not love in any meaningful way – so I understand the tendency to equate rules with ways to show love. I might not agree with specific rules or cultural standards, but I think there is an underlying assumption in the Church that absolutely values the two great commandments as the ultimate standard – even though it often is such an assumption that people don’t think they have to mention it.
Just as an example, at one point in my life, grace was almost never mentioned. We believed in it, when you get right down to it, but it was such an assumed part of “salvation” that it got overlooked regularly. In the past couple of decades, however, grace has been mentioned quite regularly in General Conference – perhaps because the leadership changed or because the leadership realized that not talking about it directly was leading members to misunderstand and move toward an incorrect extreme.
I see that happening quite regularly in the last few years with regard to love, as well. What has been unspoken for a long time is starting to be spoken, and I think that’s a good thing that ought to be acknowledged in a forum like this.
church0333 wrote:The missionaries come to dinner about every other month and give a lesson and ask for names of people top contact and we have given them some but only because of the pressure we feel do do so. As a couple we have discussed this and in truth even in my most more believing days it was hard to come up with people because our friends outside of the church are
good people and live good lives and they seem happy and it is hard to tell them that they are wrong and need my truths to make them happy.I heard this more than once on my mission, Church0333, and it’s hard to argue against. I have heard it since my mission but not to the same extent. I served in New Zealand, a first world Christian nation where the church was the fifth largest. Literally every adult knew at least something about the church, but what they knew was not always completely accurate, and almost everyone knew at least one member. The Church of England was by far the largest and there were many active, sincere – and happy – Christians. They do believe in the two great commandments, and they do believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior, and the rest of basic Christian principles. And we have the nerve to go knock on their doors and tell them they’re wrong (which really is what most missionaries believe)? I just think we’d do better to demonstrate that we might have something more or better rather than the way we generally approach it now.
I also see, even in my own missionary son, a lot of pressure placed on missionaries and stress that pressure creates. I have sensed this in his emails and letters. He is all on board with the “hasten the work” idea, but he also serves in a country where the church is well established. Finding people is very difficult and they get no member referrals, which frustrates him. He mentioned in one email how he should have referred his friend to the missionaries. I know this guy pretty well, he lives around the corner and his family (including him) is very active in another Christian church. I’m pretty sure they’d flatly reject those missionaries at the door, and while they’d be nice about it, they really have no interest in becoming Mormon. I’m not sure but what they may actually have seen it as an offense – after all, they have never tried to convert us to their church and never so much as invited us to an activity (although we know we’d be welcome, the activities are posted on a sign out front).
I think the missionary glut has created a situation where we have too many missionaries with not enough to do while being pressured to do more. I do think that if they spent more time serving people they would find more people to teach and they would be using their time more effectively.
Sure, not all paths lead to god, but I no longer believe that there is only one very specific path that leads to him. I guess you could argue that Jesus fills the role of being the sole path but then the question just shifts… one path to Jesus. If there was one path to Jesus it would be repentance, not a church. I like the idea of missionaries doing more service. I think Jesus’ influence can be better felt through acts of service instead of just words/discussions. Image what difference it would make in the world if we had 80,000 of our youth doing service projects instead of making people pretend they aren’t home when the missionaries come knocking. This change could happen overnight. At this point I’d certainly love to hear “service to your fellow beings” than I would “hasten the work” one more time.
The focus of a mission is to bring people to church and not necessarily to bring people to Christ. To a missionary those two statements would be equivalent. We get caught up in the our way/one way so much that we miss the point, I fell the true focus of a mission should be to help someone live a happier, more meaningful life.
Recently we had an investigator that was taking lessons from the missionaries. After a few months of taking the lessons he told our missionaries that he had prayed about it and decided to get baptized in a different church. The missionaries were depressed… but here was someone that wasn’t communicating with deity before that had not only made the attempt to communicate with deity but also felt like he had received an answer. The missionaries helped him learn how to do that. I see it as a win.
DarkJedi, talking about being frustrated with the members for not giving referrals… the more I think about it the more it bothers me. It bothers me that we train missionaries to develop this expectation, this demanding attitude to the point where they get frustrated or upset with the units they are serving in for not giving them referrals. I really don’t like it when doing a favor or doing service for someone becomes expected or demanded, it slowly starts to take charity out of the equation and the person providing the service slowly starts to resent giving it.
I’m going off on a tangent aren’t I?
nibbler wrote:I like the idea of missionaries doing more service. I think Jesus’ influence can be better felt through acts of service instead of just words/discussions. Image what difference it would make in the world if we had 80,000 of our youth doing service projects instead of making people pretend they aren’t home when the missionaries come knocking. This change could happen overnight. At this point I’d certainly love to hear “service to your fellow beings” than I would “hasten the work” one more time.
I’m going off on a tangent aren’t I?
I completely agree with that statement, Nibbler. And, no, I don’t think you’re off on a tangent, I think you’re making my point.
Well the Church of England and LDS share something in common, they were founded by a polygamist!
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