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Yeah, a lot of issues would disappear if local leaders actually followed the handbook and the spirit of the law- right, cwald? 
Old-Timer wrote:Yeah, a lot of issues would disappear if local leaders actually followed the handbook and the spirit of the law- right, cwald?
Yes.
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My experience is they throw away the guidebook at entirely the wrong times. Guidebook is the hammer they use to count how many meetings to have, limit what kind of testimonies are allowed, when baptisms can be heald or what your funeral can entail…but when it comes down to members being allowed to make personal dress choices? Well the guidebook is just a loose book of suggestions. :problem: Okay, I’ll give the modified version of my rant. Since it’s being typed rather than spoken it’ll lose a bit of its fervor, but on the positive side none of you will have to see the little white spittle specks developing in the corners of my mouth as build my frustration into a crescendo. 😆 During Christ’s ministry, there was no group of people – even the heretic Samaritans – who drew more ire from Jesus than the Pharisses. And why did they draw so much scorn? One word: hypocrisy. They had substituted a million tiny rules and proscriptions for the true principles of the gospel; one could be a horrible, rotten person with a cankered soul and still be a perfectly wonder Jew according to the Pharisee’s playbook.
In the Church, unfortunately, this tendancy has started to creep in and in nothing, in my opinion, is it more visibly manifest than in the white shirt thing. Imagine two bretheren walk into sacrament meeting one Sunday. Brother Abel is wearing a hand-tailored, custom made, dark blue business suit with two front buttons. He has on black wing-tipped shoes. He has a red power tie. And he is wearing a light blue shirt. His face is razored clean, and his hair is neat and professional. Brother Baker also walks in. He is wearing a pair of beige cargo pants with large, oversized pockets on the side. The hems on the bottom are frayed from dragging on the ground. He wears an over-worn pair of Doc Martens boots. He’s got on a short-sleeved white shirt left over from his mission; it long ago ceased to be truly white, it’s now more grey. It has worn so threadbare that Brother Baker’s garment top is beaconing through. He tops off this ensemble with a Homer Simpson tie. He neglected to shave this week, and his hair resembles nothing else so much as a kitchen mop. Now, of these two brothers, which one is wearing “the Lord’s uniform?” Which one has truly taken to heart the concept of showing reverence for God by wearing his “Sunday best” to church? If the bishop needed an elder to help bless the sacrament that Sunday, we all know he’d pass by Brother Abel in favor of Brother Baker – and why? Because Brother Baker is wearing a “white” shirt he’d formerly washed in a bucket on his mission in the Philippines.
I have an absolute testimony that if Christ were to show up at one of our sacrament meetings to preside, HE WOULD NOT GIVE A FLYING FIG WHAT COLOR SHIRT THE MEN WERE WEARING! Not only Christ, but JS constantly railed against those who expected him to act with more solemnity and decorum. They thought a prophet shouldn’t be wrestling with the young men, or working in a garden in the dirt, or cracking jokes. He rebuked this often – and they’re some of my most treasured accounts of the Prophet.
In the Church, we’re big fans of doing things by proxy; baptisms, marriages, endowments, etc. Unfortunately, we’ve also developed a knack for determining worthiness by proxy. Instead of looking on a man’s heart to judge his character, all you have to do is check the color of his shirt and whether the “Mormon smile” of his low-neck garmets is showing through.
So, as with the Pharisees at the time of Christ, you can be a truly awful, terrible, hateful person and be an upstanding Mormon. All you gotta do is wear a white shirt to church every Sunday, sit through 3 hours of meetings, break off 10% every month, stay away from cigs and beer, and you’re golden. It doesn’t matter if you
actuallyserve anyone. It doesn’t really matter if you actuallylove anyone. Brother Abel above could be the most charitable, Christ-like man in the ward but he’ll never considered for priesthood advancement or a leadership position so long as he persists in wearing that devilish blue shirt to Church. There. I’m done.
Our bishop (this was right after he was first called) talked to us about our deacon son having his sleeves rolled up while passing the sacrament. His shirt was getting too small, and we hadn’t been back to the US for a while to get him a new one. He’s a teen boy – he’s growing. I don’t actually really care about the request to not roll up his sleeves, but the way it was asked stuck in my craw. He asked whether Jesus would roll up his sleeves. (He also took the priests to task for whispering at the sacrament table – one boy was new and wasn’t sure what to do, and he asked my son who answered. Again, the question was what would Jesus do). Here’s what I think Jesus would do. He would do what makes sense, even if it meant breaking the rules. He would focus on helping people, not on appearance. He would wear a homespun robe, not a white shirt from Kohl’s. He would not judge people for appearances because the Lord looketh on the heart. He would welcome the sinners and publicans and call the hypocrites to repentance. It’s also a little unsavory to think of him passing the sacrament in a Last Supper way. “That’s me in the tray. Well, a symbol anyway.” I can see why the twelve apostles found him talking about what the sacrament represented hard to bear. I don’t even like it when I find a hair in my food.
Careful there Kumahito, I think you got a little spittle on my white shirt and now I don’t have anything to wear to church. If Christ shows up before I get it washed I am in big trouble. I thought I was entering a forum of wisdom and would be guided in my crisis. Now I’m seeing it more as a place to vent and be opinionated and am concerned about misguidance. So wearing a white shirt is Christ’s uniform? Never heard that. Of course Christ wouldn’t care what color shirt you’re wearing. Of course your worthiness isn’t determined by your dress code and who the heck is judging character by looking at a shirt, smile or visible garments. “We” haven’t developed that knack at all. … he’ll never considered for priesthood advancement or a leadership position so long as he persists in wearing that devilish blue shirt to Church. Really??? No wonder you get so worked up since you will never find consistent agreement on any of these made up issues. I’ll wait for the inevitable sharp witty response fueled unknowingly by confusion but in an effort to head it off here’s a thought, it’s really very simple. If you were going to meet a broker to finance an investment or if you were going to accompany your spouse or child to a banquet or to dinner at the boss’s house or if you were going to meet with the GM and the board at work or if you were going to your child’s wedding…wouldn’t you dress up a little and in some cases dress up the best you possibly could out of respect if nothing else? If you would dress up for a man wouldn’t you dress up in the presence of God? It’s really nothing more than that, dress however you want, nobody is judging you, it is The Lord’s house and we are all free to show our respect and reverence how we want. For most it will be in our best cleanest attire. And white is a symbol of purity. There’s nothing more to it than that. Kipper, sincere question: Where did the tone of that last comment come from?
The people here have all kinds of views and feelings about the topics discussed. For example, I love the symbolism of wearing a white shirt to administer the sacrament, since it ties it to baptism (as Elder Holland explained in his talk about this topic). However, I don’t like at all the enforcement of white shirts to administer the sacrament, especially since Elder Holland said in that talk that white shirts should not be a requirement – and since it says exactly that in the handbook. I also don’t like the idea that a white shirt and tie (and suit coat) is a “uniform of the Priesthood”.
We aren’t about enforcing or proposing one way for everyone to see things. We aren’t about convincing people they are wrong. Our central mission is focused on helping people find ways to stay LDS – and even that means different things for different people.
Yes, there is venting that occurs – especially about issues when people have passionate feelings, but we don’t encourage or allow venting just to vent. We have shut down threads that turned into nothing but vent sessions. There are plenty of other sites for that.
We are about encouraging people to find solutions that work at the individual level.
So, back to the topic at hand, my own feelings about white shirts are mixed, as I described above. I don’t have ANY problem with the official, written policy of the Church; I have problems with the unofficial, unwritten interpretations of too many people in the Church – the interpretations that, ironically, are not in line with what the Church itself actually teaches. In this case, I (and most of us here) am saying:
Quote:“We need to quit building hedges about the law. We need to quit making up rules that actually obscure the message an apostle taught when he spoke about this topic. We need to stick to what he actually said.”
Kipper, we some times even use humor to help us cope with our crisis. No offence intended Kipper, most people leave their jobs because they have a problem with their direct boss, not the organization they work for. So it is often with people’s experience with local church leaders. StayLDS is a place to find solace and ways to make your church experience work, even when you encounter things like local leaders that make mistakes or have rogue ideas. If you haven’t read the threads on Fowlers stages, that might be a good thing to read through. Most people who arrive here are in Stage 4, and venting happens in Stage 4. In Stage 5, you’ve gotten past the venting and found a way to make it work. Hopefully you’ll find it helpful as you continue to read through the posts. Sometimes when your boss is bugging you at work it’s good to blow off steam at lunch with your peers. Threads do take on a life of their own. For instance, my intent in starting this thread was not to talk about white shirts in particular, but to discuss how conforming to one style of dress makes it difficult to express oneself, and to learn more about others. In every society the clothing and jewelry are consciously used to convey information to the other members of the society. By having so many unwritten standards in the church, we make individual expression difficult.
The speaker pointed out that it also makes it more difficult to get to know each other.
I came away from the talk reminded that because we all look similar because of the cultural expectations of the church, we need to make more of an effort to get to know people, and not assume that because they look like me they are like me.
However, I didn’t express that well, either in the title or my original post.
The thread went where it did. This is the internet, that happens.
Old-Timer wrote:Kipper, sincere question:
Where did the tone of that last comment come from?
The people here have all kinds of views and feelings about the topics discussed. For example, I love the symbolism of wearing a white shirt to administer the sacrament, since it ties it to baptism (as Elder Holland explained in his talk about this topic). However, I don’t like at all the enforcement of white shirts to administer the sacrament, especially since Elder Holland said in that talk that white shirts should not be a requirement – and since it says exactly that in the handbook. I also don’t like the idea that a white shirt and tie (and suit coat) is a “uniform of the Priesthood”.
We aren’t about enforcing or proposing one way for everyone to see things. We aren’t about convincing people they are wrong. Our central mission is focused on helping people find ways to stay LDS – and even that means different things for different people.
Yes, there is venting that occurs – especially about issues when people have passionate feelings, but we don’t encourage or allow venting just to vent. We have shut down threads that turned into nothing but vent sessions. There are plenty of other sites for that.
We are about encouraging people to find solutions that work at the individual level.
So, back to the topic at hand, my own feelings about white shirts are mixed, as I described above. I don’t have ANY problem with the official, written policy of the Church; I have problems with the unofficial, unwritten interpretations of too many people in the Church – the interpretations that, ironically, are not in line with what the Church itself actually teaches. In this case, I (and most of us here) am saying:
Quote:“We need to quit building hedges about the law. We need to quit making up rules that actually obscure the message an apostle taught when he spoke about this topic. We need to stick to what he actually said.”
Ray,
Thank you for the gentle but firm reprimand. Sorry if my tone offended kumihito or anyone else. I’ll try to use humor or somehow tone it down if there is a next time. I get this way when I have discussions with friends or acquaintances who feel they have to say borderline derogatory things about the church in an effort to lower it in stead of raise themselves. I have a friend who is useless to me as a confidant. He is no longer active and comes up with wild church or member related stories intended to get me feeling the same way he does but those things aren’t entirely true I can’t just sit quietly. I just want to discuss facts and solutions or ways to deal with confusion about things that don’t seem right. I don’t want inserted emotional triggers. Sometimes so much effort is put into describing a feeling rather than a real issue that ridiculous comments are inserted to up the emotion of the reader. I think I read some of those things here that sounded nuts (to me) and my emotional response was all I could come up with at the time. Sorry, I have had better technique. I do believe my substance was in line and I some good points that could have otherwise been useful but if I had it to do over I would spend more time on the delivery. So in the future if I feel the need to respond with disagreement I’ll use this as a learning experience.
On a side note, my faith crisis is stalled I am finding no help in my personal life and, well, I am just stalled out.
hi Brother Fish, I hope you can stick around. This is a good site which avoids excesses and some of the sillier tendencies of the church. As I said to rebecca elsewhere, men get the bum deal with clothing too. I dislike white shirts for many reasons. They get dirty too easily for one.
I’m afraid to say I have direct experience of shirt dictators, My first HT was one. He made a comment about this to me not long after joining. I hated it. It hurt me and I thought it was a man made rule. God loves me whatever I wear. He sees into my heart, not my laundry. Wearing the same clothes makes us look cultish. I love colored shirts and colorful people.
Kipper, I’m not going to rise and take the bait of your ad hominemattack. It actually gave me a bit of a laugh. Instead I’ll just note two things. First, since you don’t know me from Adam it’s safe to assume that you have no idea what my experience in the Church has been like, right? I’ve been attending LDS meetings for over 40 years, on 5 continents and over a dozen different countries. Perhaps you’ve had the good fortune of attending amazing wards where no one judges anyone else and the bishops have a come-as-you-are dress code. Brother, I’m here to tell you though, that’s quite a far way from my experience. I’ve heard more than one bishop, stake president, mission president and area authority refer to the white shirt / blue suit deal as “the Lord’s uniform.” That’s not a paraphrase, that’s a quote. So again, since you don’t know me and haven’t walked a metre in my shoes, let alone a mile, don’t just assume that since I’ve got strong feelings about a subject it must necessarily be because I’m making stuff up in order to take cheap shots and Church. I think we all know that if one wants to take pot shots and the Church there are plenty of well-documented, factual bases on which to do so – I don’t need to make stuff up if I want to low-blow the Church.
Second, and perhaps this is the irony here –
I wear a white shirt to Church every single Sunday. And if you want to know why, go read I Corinthians Chapter 8 in its entirety, paying particular attention to verse 13. So, was that a “sharp witty response fueled unknowingly by confusion”?
Enjoy your faith crisis, Kipper. I really do hope you come out the other side with peace.
Kipper wrote:I thought I was entering a forum of wisdom and would be guided in my crisis. Now I’m seeing it more as a place to vent and be opinionated and am concerned about misguidance. So wearing a white shirt is Christ’s uniform? Never heard that. Of course Christ wouldn’t care what color shirt you’re wearing. Of course your worthiness isn’t determined by your dress code and who the heck is judging character by looking at a shirt, smile or visible garments. “We” haven’t developed that knack at all. … he’ll never considered for priesthood advancement or a leadership position so long as he persists in wearing that devilish blue shirt to Church. Really??? No wonder you get so worked up since you will never find consistent agreement on any of these made up issues. I’ll wait for the inevitable sharp witty response fueled unknowingly by confusion but in an effort to head it off here’s a thought, it’s really very simple. If you were going to meet a broker to finance an investment or if you were going to accompany your spouse or child to a banquet or to dinner at the boss’s house or if you were going to meet with the GM and the board at work or if you were going to your child’s wedding…wouldn’t you dress up a little and in some cases dress up the best you possibly could out of respect if nothing else? If you would dress up for a man wouldn’t you dress up in the presence of God? It’s really nothing more than that, dress however you want, nobody is judging you, it is The Lord’s house and we are all free to show our respect and reverence how we want. For most it will be in our best cleanest attire. And white is a symbol of purity. There’s nothing more to it than that.
Kipper:
Quote:I have a friend who is useless to me as a confidant. He is no longer active and comes up with wild church or member related stories intended to get me feeling the same way he does but those things aren’t entirely true I can’t just sit quietly. I just want to discuss facts and solutions or ways to deal with confusion about things that don’t seem right. I don’t want inserted emotional triggers. Sometimes so much effort is put into describing a feeling rather than a real issue that ridiculous comments are inserted to up the emotion of the reader. I think I read some of those things here that sounded nuts (to me)
This is an interesting comment. I actually find this at times, too, especially when I go to NOM. There are a lot of people who are sharing stories, some of them clearly exaggerated to the point where they strain credulity, many of them third hand or worse, and often designed to portray a very black & white, victim & perpetrator scenario. I too tire of these histrionics, entertaining though they may be. I don’t believe everything I hear.
Actually, it’s interesting because things that just roll off for me bother my husband and vice versa. I’ll say I didn’t like something someone said, and he won’t even have noticed it, and he’ll say he thought the bishop was out of line in something he said, and I’ll laugh it off. So much is related to our temperament, our historical experiences, and how we are feeling in the moment.
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