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Here is a statement from Pope Francis about how the church is wounded by its own sin…why can’t our church openly admit its failings in this way? Sure, we can hide essays in remote corners of our website or have a free minded GA like Uchdorft make a blanket, non-specific statement, but why can’t we do what any pure-hearted creature would do, and openly ADMIT and apologize for our failings, even if it reflects badly on leaders? https://www.yahoo.com/news/pope-says-weary-church-wounded-162518627.html Such an admission would only help people like myself and others heal. Faithful members would likely embrace the statement with some form of rationalization and continue to stay. Maybe some would leave, but others would stay as a result. And in the process, the church gets kudos for doing what any “righteous” organization would do — admit its failing, apologize, and then do better.
I see the Catholic Church having many similarities with the LDS Church, but on a much grander scale. Both lay claim to Jesus’ authority, passed on by the laying on of hands. And both have historically considered any scrutiny to be heretical sacrilige. And I don’t think the LDS Church would’ve acted any differently if placed in the same position. With the Catholic Church, the sex abuse got to be too much of a problem, and too much coverage to sweep under the rug. Plus, Pope Francis seems to be a little more like David O McKay than President Nelson. Of course, historically both organizations have been plenty worse than they are presently, and neither organization is willing to be fully open about those past “sins”. The Catholic church has been worse… but we would’ve been too, given the opportunity. We just didn’t have the money to build up a theocratic nation, the resources to launch a crusade to fulfill our “oath of vengence”, or the legal power to enact “blood atonement” into law. Power corresponds exponentially with how evil you can be, and the LDS Church never had that kind of power. I hope we never do. But for now, our sins are much easier to sweep under the rug and ignore.
The LDS has never suffered from anything as catastrophic as the abuse revelations. It’s been huge for them. It has turned Ireland from.being a largely Catholic country into a secular one within a generation or two. I think the RC church has handled the issue appallingly. It would be difficult to stamp out child abuse entirely, but if and when it happens, measures could be taken. The RC Church has:
* Failed to address the needs of those who were abused.
* Covered it up repeatedly.
* Failed to introduce adequate safeguards.
* Put abusers back into circulation, resulting in more abuse.
* Not punished the abusers properly.
* Created an environment in which abuse flourishes.
* Not allowed clergy to marry which is partly responsible for this and other problems.
* Maintained odd attitudes to sexuality which have also played a part.
In fact, they are a textbook example of how not to deal with this issue. I am glad that the Pope is making these statements, but the damage has been done.
I would go so far as to say that if Satan wished to destroy Christianity, he would do so most effectively by destroying it from within. I believe free agency was responsible on the part of the abusers, and it is on their heads but that darker forces are at play.
dande48 wrote:
I see the Catholic Church having many similarities with the LDS Church, but on a much grander scale.
The Roman Catholic church’s problems make those of the LDS look like a drop in the ocean.
Why Can’t the LDS Church be open like this? In one word? Fear.
The part I learn from this is that the “wrongs” have to be widely known and shouted from the rooftops for the establishment to acknowledge them at some level. That’s not my role or my purpose in life (unlike other activist types in the church, who normally get excommunicated if they get a following or too vocal). But the allegations of abuse in the Catholic church are widespread and widely known, with, I think some payment and tons and tons of witnesses. I also think if the pressure to own up to our history had come from outside the church, instead of inside, it may have gotten a different response. Like Dande pointed out, both churches (all churches) aren’t totally up front about their histories either. Just read Mother Teresa’s Letters. She got no support for her mission to India. Total silence. That wasn’t even a scandalous problem.
We are also still a teen church. They are ancient compared to us. Look how long it took them to get a liberal Pope who would address the issue.
Our church’s biggest mistake was inciting testimonies based on history. Though they haven’t been as transparent as I like that I have, in the lifetime of the problem, taken some steps. As big as I would like? No. Part of that is because they never had their shelf fall down. It’s like telling a cancer patient to eat more vegetables.
SilentDawning wrote:
The part I learn from this is that the “wrongs” have to be widely known and shouted from the rooftops for the establishment to acknowledge them at some level.
The truth is, we’re small fish. I think most people think of the LDS Church, the way most members of the Church think about the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They might know one or two, and think all-in-all they are pretty nice people. If they are bored, they might do a quick google search and find out more about our dirty laundry than most members. They feel we have some pretty weird beliefs, and it’s obvious to them our Church is false… and that’s where it stops. They don’t really care, or even think of us that much.
We’ve got 1% the membership as the Catholic Church, and we’re stagnating. While we do have stupidly deep pockets for our membership numbers, we just don’t have the same reach, power, or influence as the Catholic Empire. Things would have to disasterously bad for anyone to pay us mind. Consider the FLDS Church; Much worse on many levels. But they are so tiny, we rarely waste the effort thinking about them.
One other reason I thought of: The Catholic Church has reallylightened up on the required commitment and expectations of its membership. It seems to be a lot easier to be only “half-in” with Catholicism. You can be a “Christmas and Easter” Catholic, pretty easily. There are no “belief requirements”. Its much easier to be Catholic, not because you believe, but because its important to your family. Tithing in Catholicism is VERY open to interpretation, and is basically “provide support to the Church, if you are able to do so”, with no percentage given. Also, it is VERY difficult to get excommunicated these days from the Catholic Church. In contrast, we have our “testimony competitions”. We’re required to profess belief and adhere to pretty strict rules in order to participate in most any ritual or ordinance. Our membership is asked to work for many hours, often for free (unless you’re in the top leadership). We’re required to give 10% of our tithe, and a generous fast offering. And “correctness of belief” is a HUGE deal. As a result, our active membership is much smaller but a LOT more devote. The FLDS Church is much smaller than we are, but also much more devoted. The Catholic Church is humongous, but also much less devoted and thereby a lot more willing to scrutinize.
And adding to Dande’s great list – This misconduct is sexual in nature. It’s appalling in every way, shape, and form. If it was monetery misuse, or something else, it too might be open to interpretation. mom3 wrote:
And adding to Dande’s great list – This misconduct is sexual in nature. It’s appalling in every way, shape, and form. If it was monetery misuse, or something else, it too might be open to interpretation.
We’ve had sexual misconduct too. And just like the Catholics, the LDS leadership does everything they can to “sweep it under the rug”. If they can’t, they’ll toss who they “need to” under the bus, to make the issue “go away” (even the victims). The Catholics might have a more systemic problem, with their celibate requirements of their clergy. But the sexual misconduct of certain LDS leaders is partly systemic as well.
Quote:the LDS leadership does everything they can to “sweep it under the rug”. If they can’t, they’ll toss who they “need to” under the bus, to make the issue “go away” (even the victims). The Catholics might have a more systemic problem, with their celibate requirements of their clergy. But the sexual misconduct of certain LDS leaders is partly systemic as well.
I agree. As does every sport group, college, you name it.
In light of this conversation the reason for the candor likely has a lot to do with the present Pope. He is more liberal. He also isn’t the one at fault. He had to do something. And it took a long time for them to make a statement like this. This problem was going on before he became Pontiff.
We have had horrid ones, no doubt. We have handled them horrendously. We have even elected Presidents who have problems in this area. (And I am not referencing the present administration.)
mom3 wrote:
Quote:the LDS leadership does everything they can to “sweep it under the rug”. If they can’t, they’ll toss who they “need to” under the bus, to make the issue “go away” (even the victims). The Catholics might have a more systemic problem, with their celibate requirements of their clergy. But the sexual misconduct of certain LDS leaders is partly systemic as well.
I agree. As does every sport group, college, you name it.In light of this conversation the reason for the candor likely has a lot to do with the present Pope. He is more liberal. He also isn’t the one at fault. He had to do something. And it took a long time for them to make a statement like this. This problem was going on before he became Pontiff.
We have had horrid ones, no doubt. We have handled them horrendously. We have even elected Presidents who have problems in this area. (And I am not referencing the present administration.)
See the bolded part above. For me the difference here is that we claim to have a divine commission — can we justify ourselves by indicating all organizations do this? That for me is the kicker…
SilentDawning wrote:
For me the difference here is that we claim to have a divine commission — can we justify ourselves by indicating all organizations do this? That for me is the kicker…
The only groups who can make claims of “divine commission” are those who can get away with it (specifically, religions, nations, and certain leaders). Many organizations walk extremely close to that line. But I’d say just about all make claims which go against the reality of their “sins”. What matters isn’t so much the type of claim, but how effective it is in getting others to act against their own best interests.
Quote:For me the difference here is that we claim to have a divine commission — can we justify ourselves by indicating all organizations do this? That for me is the kicker…
Humans will be humans. Only one was supposedly spotless. He was judged a heretic and killed for it.
I too wish someone in the top leadership understood the impact and pain of the historic discoveries, as well as the horrid policies that have created exclusion and damage. With that understanding, I would hope words or actions would be extended to help heal the grief. It won’t happen, though. It’s an experience that won’t be fixed. It is in that space, that we get to make decisions.
I believe in karma, and I believe it will continue to play a part in the unfolding of our church. Already the numbers who have left are staggering. Some form of Mormonism will rise up out of it and keep going. I can’t fully guess what that is, but we have done it before. There is a draw beyond the history that holds people here.
Maybe when we are as old as Catholicism we will be able to have a leader be open like this.
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