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Rob4Hope: Thank you so much for your clarifications. Much appreciated.
University:
Just “yes” to everything you wrote.
DarkJedi:
Great comments and insights.
Ray:
No heated debates here .. Just interesting to hear a very different POV. It’s always great to get out the echo chamber. I learn things that I didn’t even know were issues.
Rob4Hope wrote:University, this is heartbreaking. I know some who have had this. I want to point out something you actually said hear that is quite interesting. This woman apparently was married for years, and never communicated to her husband that sex hurt?
Where was the communication about this?There is something to learn here, and if there were doctrinal teachings involved, then perhaps the idea of NOT talking about sex before marriage carried over into this marriage, and these two still didn’t talk. I don’t think it’s that simple. As a child, before I got glasses, I had absolutely no idea that things could be seen that clearly. I grew up with limited vision, never calling things into question because that was all I knew. Eventually I had my eyes checked and it was determined that I needed glasses. When I got them I was absolutely amazed by the world around me. Everything was clear, clearer than I could ever imagine. Before I got glasses there was no way I could have communicated to my parents that I needed glasses because limited vision was one of my blind (pun) spots.
The wife in that scenario could be completely blind to the idea of pain free sex. To her that may have been just how things were so she felt no need to communicate what may have been perceived as a shared experience for everyone. It’s hard to fault her for not communicating. I also feel like it borders on blaming a victim (in this case a victim of circumstance, not a victim of someone doing something harmful intentionally).
amateurparent wrote:I keep on reading these posts about asexual marriages…So I know it’s out there and there are people suffering…My big question:
If someone is in an asexual marriage, what makes that person stay??I can understand health issues, impotence due to disease, etc, but what makes someone stay in a relationship that has become merely platonic?Personally I think the Church culture fosters a certain level of codependence in relationships (especially due to the idea of separate gender roles, the priesthood concept, etc.) and people putting up with things that they shouldn’t be expected to not only in the case of lack of sex but for example men that are workaholics that hardly ever talk to or spend much time with their wives, verbal and even physical abuse, etc. To me it looks like many active Church members don’t really know the difference between a relatively good relationship and a bad one because their own experience is all they have ever really known and they don’t have anything else to directly compare it against so some of them will have sex a relatively few times and get used to the idea that this is just how it is and tough it out mostly for the sake of their children, keeping up appearances, they think this is what they are supposed to do, etc. Some of them do get divorced eventually but sometimes it takes 15-20 years to reach that point. This is one reason why I think having sex before marriage can actually be an advantage overall in many cases nowadays because at least people will have a better idea what they are signing up for instead of having so many men unknowingly end up with a wife that is basically frigid from day one based largely on the luck of the draw.
nibbler wrote:Rob4Hope wrote:University, this is heartbreaking. I know some who have had this. I want to point out something you actually said hear that is quite interesting. This woman apparently was married for years, and never communicated to her husband that sex hurt?
Where was the communication about this?There is something to learn here, and if there were doctrinal teachings involved, then perhaps the idea of NOT talking about sex before marriage carried over into this marriage, and these two still didn’t talk. I don’t think it’s that simple. As a child, before I got glasses, I had absolutely no idea that things could be seen that clearly. I grew up with limited vision, never calling things into question because that was all I knew. Eventually I had my eyes checked and it was determined that I needed glasses. When I got them I was absolutely amazed by the world around me. Everything was clear, clearer than I could ever imagine. Before I got glasses there was no way I could have communicated to my parents that I needed glasses because limited vision was one of my blind (pun) spots.
The wife in that scenario could be completely blind to the idea of pain free sex. To her that may have been just how things were so she felt no need to communicate what may have been perceived as a shared experience for everyone. It’s hard to fault her for not communicating. I also feel like it borders on blaming a victim (in this case a victim of circumstance, not a victim of someone doing something harmful intentionally).
I don’t want to sound like I’m blaming her as a victim,…but I think she has been victimized and suffered when she shouldn’t have. Let me explain…
Years ago…like 10 or so, there was a guy named Dan Grey who is a LCSW in SL County, Utah. If you want to know more about him…google it. I know him. He is a good guy and quite qualified.
Well, he was commissioned by the local LDS area authorities to visit the wards in SL County during their 5th Sunday meetings and talk to the parents about the messages they were sharing with their children about sex. I was in attendance during one such visit. Dan said something very interesting, which I will quote as closely as I can remember.
Quote:
“We teach our children that sex is bad; that you shouldn’t have those feelings; that its nasty and inappropriate. You should save it for someone you love.”
Read this again,..and again if you don’t get it. In the quest to protect our children, we poison the well. We are so afraid that children will break the LOC and commit the sin next to murder,…we are so afraid of that, we are willing to create a physical, even soul aversion in them against sex. Then we give them the strange message to save this thing for someone we love?
Dan was clear. This is the message he has encountered across the whole SL county area in all kinds of ways. This is a damaging message. I believe this plays into the problem.
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OK…please now consider the messages that came from earlier generations–I’m talking JFS and HBL. Those guys were really strong that birth-control was a serious sin. Sex was for children. Then there was the big mess with the oral sex letter from SWK.
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Now, the policy generally from the LDS faith is that the leadership should stay out of the bedroom of the saints. So, the most common message now is…..silence. I’ve heard some exceptions to this rule, for example I heard Elder Nelson say that sex is an expression of love. I’ve heard and read the talk from Elder Holland about sex being a sacrament of marriage, and frankly he wrapped it up so tightly in “sacredness” that it felt to me like you should fast and pray for weeks before having sex since it was so utterly sacred.
I’ve heard over and over GAs say that we should teach our children about the negative consequences of sexual problems like porn use at age appropriate times. However, the messages of sex being good in marriage, something to be enjoyed, are far and few between…like I can count them on one hand. Mostly, this topic is probably so charged it is avoided completely. The message of silence is generally universal.
The silence on sex being good and enjoyable in marriage is deafening.I believe the LDS church has created a culture where good information about sexuality is avoided. The messages of sexuality being sinful outside of marriage are so drummed into the minds of children, that it can contaminate the marriage bed. And, at the same time, sex for pleasure…just for the fun of it…is a missing message completely.
Several years ago the church did something which was nice, but almost immediate become buried IMHO. See this link in “overcoming pornography”
https://overcomingpornography.org/spouses-and-families/sexual-intimacy-is-sacred-and-beautiful?lang=eng ” class=”bbcode_url”> https://overcomingpornography.org/spouses-and-families/sexual-intimacy-is-sacred-and-beautiful?lang=eng How many of you out there knew about this article?
The church admits:
Quote:
• When we often focus on the negative consequences of breaking the law of chastity, it can sometimes be challenging for children to understand that sexual feelings are good. It is important to teach that these feelings are wonderful and can help us develop healthy relationships when they are expressed appropriately. Help your children understand the relationship between the sexual feelings they have or will develop and the sexual behavior that should be reserved for married couples. Teach that sexual feelings are a gift from our Heavenly Father and should be treated with respect.
Nibbler,…this example above of this poor woman? I don’t think she knew sex was supposed to feel good. How did she get into marriage, and go through years of marriage and never think that sex was supposed to feel good?
Someone didn’t teach her. She is not the one to be blamed–if blame is needed. Someone didn’t teach her that sex was also supposed to be fun. She was doing it out of duty. She had internalized the old messages, was sacrificing her feelings now to be “obedient”, and was suffering as a result.
Why was this message of sex being fun,…feeling good,…being desirable…why was this never communicated?
Nibbler, someone in your life — an adult — had your eyes checked because they new that good eyesight was something needed. You didn’t know better because you had no experience. But, someone who loved you made sure you were taken care of.
If sex is a big deal in marriage and causes lots of divorces and such, who was looking after the needs of this woman? Was she taught with the customary silence on the issue, and this was OK?
I believe that sexual dysfunction is a very real outcome when we attempt to fight nature to the death. Rob4Hope wrote:Nibbler,…this example above of this poor woman? I don’t think she knew sex was supposed to feel good. How did she get into marriage, and go through years of marriage and never think that sex was supposed to feel good?
Hard to say. This is probably an area were masturbation comes in handy.
Rob4Hope wrote:Nibbler, someone in your life — an adult — had your eyes checked because they new that good eyesight was something needed. You didn’t know better because you had no experience. But, someone who loved you made sure you were taken care of.
It’s been a lifetime ago but I believe it came about when one of those boxes to attend school had to be ticked. It’s probably the same reason we have sex ed in schools, not everyone gets it at home.
amateurparent wrote:In my world, my LDS girlfriends are talking about lingerie, having their kid walk in on them while in the shower with their husband, getting implants or a lift, weekends away to “play”, oral sex, and the benefits of various forms of foreplay. These are all women who have been married over 30 years .. And they talk about their daughters as if the next generation had continued the tradition. That is my normal.
Just so you know, it’s reading things like this that frustrate the ever living #&$^# out of someone in an unsatisfying sexual relationship. It can be salt in the wound for people that feel as though they lost at sexual roulette when they got married. I can see how divorce quickly comes into play because for better or worse one thought that comes to mind is “why can’t I have experiences like those?”
amateurparent wrote:My big question: If someone is in an asexual marriage, what makes that person stay?? I can understand health issues, impotence due to disease, etc, but what makes someone stay in a relationship that has become merely platonic?
Sex is just one aspect of marriage. I hear libidos wane so there must be something else in place should that happen. Rob has also made some good points in that when confronted with these issues a person can begin to fell like they need to make it their life goal to stamp out all sexual desire.
That’s another fun little aspect about humans, as I understand it men and women peak sexually at different times.
nibbler wrote:
Just so you know, it’s reading things like this that frustrate the ever living #&$^# out of someone in an unsatisfying sexual relationship. It can be salt in the wound for people that feel as though they lost at sexual roulette when they got married. I can see how divorce quickly comes into play because for better or worse one thought that comes to mind is “why can’t I have experiences like those?”
BULLS-EYE!
And it leads to divorce in many cases. Which sucks.
nibbler wrote:
amateurparent wrote:In my world, my LDS girlfriends are talking about lingerie, having their kid walk in on them while in the shower with their husband, getting implants or a lift, weekends away to “play”, oral sex, and the benefits of various forms of foreplay. These are all women who have been married over 30 years .. And they talk about their daughters as if the next generation had continued the tradition. That is my normal.
Just so you know, it’s reading things like this that frustrate the ever living #&$^# out of someone in an unsatisfying sexual relationship. It can be salt in the wound for people that feel as though they lost at sexual roulette when they got married. I can see how divorce quickly comes into play because for better or worse one thought that comes to mind is “why can’t I have experiences like those?”
I have kept out of this exchange the last 2 days or so, partially because Rob was having a good go at it
But you are square on with your comment Nibbler. And when you get as old as me, you begin to realize that you will NEVER have such a relationship – it hurts like hell. It isn’t the sex really – it is the rejection. Rejection of ME. It certainly hurts me more than the passing of my parents, just as a reference. And no offense to AP on mentioning this. I get it all the time. Even a very Christian coworker happened to mention yesterday that “after a month they finally have ‘christened’ each room in their new house.”
And I am dealing with a double whammy of feeling like I have been cheated out of what should be the most important and meaningful relationship AND simultaneously feeling like my religion has lied to me and let me down also. I know I am playing the victim card here a bit and when I typed this in I thought, “No wonder you can’t seem to shake your depression!”.
I will stop now, but I wanted to get this bit in before the admin’s shut down this thread.
LookingHard wrote:I will stop now, but I wanted to get this bit in before the admin’s shut down this thread.
I don’t know that there’s any concern with content such as yours LH. I personally don’t like argument for argument’s sake, although a
littledevil’s advocate is not generally bad. And I share Ray’s concern in that we have had touchy subjects like this that have touched some nerves in the past and I don’t want people to be hurt if that happens. I’ve been vocal on this thread a lot. And I’m divorced…Hunh…wonder why? Anyway…the experience out there is sooooo vast, and mine is a microcosm of only a particular segment. I hope this thread doesn’t get turned off. I’ve tried to be careful but just…honest. Strong feelings are so generated by this type of thing.
LH…I’m sorry for your pain, and others like us in this same mess.
LookingHard wrote:
But you are square on with your comment Nibbler. And when you get as old as me, you begin to realize that you will NEVER have such a relationship – it hurts like hell. It isn’t the sex really – it is the rejection. Rejection of ME. It certainly hurts me more than the passing of my parents, just as a reference. And no offense to AP on mentioning this. I get it all the time. Even a very Christian coworker happened to mention yesterday that “after a month they finally have ‘christened’ each room in their new house.”And I am dealing with a double whammy of feeling like I have been cheated out of what should be the most important and meaningful relationship AND simultaneously feeling like my religion has lied to me and let me down also. I know I am playing the victim card here a bit and when I typed this in I thought, “No wonder you can’t seem to shake your depression!”.
I’m dealing with the double whammy too, LH. This is so hard to get through. Does it ever get any better? I can’t see an end in sight. I want to resolve my faith transition without ending my marriage, but I’m not sure that is even possible anymore.
I can’t pretend to have any insight or answers to these questions. They are good questions. FaithfulSkeptic wrote:Does it ever get any better? I can’t see an end in sight.
I like to believe it can. But I’m a bit more open minded at my age, and cautious to think I can promise anything to anyone…only share my perspective and experience and support.
LookingHard wrote:It isn’t the sex really – it is the rejection. Rejection of ME.
I agree these are the kinds of feelings that make it more complicated, because it really does start to get to these kinds of feelings about ourselves and how we view things. Sex, by itself, I think, is just one of many needs in life and we don’t get all our needs met like we want but can learn to balance and trade off…I think we can trade off our ideal hope for a healthy sexual relationship if other elements overshadow it. I think many people do. Whether people “should” just cope with sub-par sexual lives or not is irrelevant. Should or should not…it is just what it is. Lots of people get through it, it is probably easier done if exploring it openly instead of never talking or trying things. I do think a person can be celibate and happy…but it depends on the other things going on in life. You find the things in your situation you can control and work on those, you find the things out of your control and just shield yourself from those as much as possible but simply deal with the uncontrollables.
As you probably all remember…I’ve been divorced and remarried. It was the foundation of me questioning my faith and what matters to me.
In my darkest times, I asked the questions FS was asking and wondered if it was easier to not care than to keep trying to hope for it to get better.
I guess I was just thinking of posting in this thread how I can see the same kinds of questions and cycles in many different human situations…whether it be sexual relationships, careers and wealth, physical health, church fulfillment, or many other elements that we all face. It seems some people luck out with good situations in some areas. Rarely does someone have it all. We often tell ourselves stories about it…and I learned how poor my story was…as if I was blessed for something I did and others could have it if they did the same…only to learn compassion because I couldn’t control nearly as much as I thought, and I wasn’t blessed because of anything I did as a mormon as much as I thought…life humbled me pretty good.
There are no silver bullets to magically work for everyone. Sometimes trying to understand “why” we have our situations is futile because there is no “why”…we don’t deserve to not be happy or fulfilled. I guess I just started accepting some things as less than ideal, and learning how little I know about anything. I can’t really say much to help other people who are struggling…except that I think there is hope if we focus on loving each other. Because goodness begets goodness. There are ups and downs and when things are down…it seems like it can never get better sometimes…but laws of averages and the world spinning as it does…we can hold on and things will get better if we keep trying.
Some things are out of our control. So…what are we going to do about it? Despite where we are in our relationships…what choices are there? Is it like AP suggested and “honesty discussions” will help? For some, maybe…for others maybe not…I was in a relationship where honest discussions were impossible…despite my years of marriage therapy. So…I can’t say. For some, divorce is a blessing, but it comes with such a high cost if it can be avoided I would never recommend it.
Perhaps the only thing I can say is…just keep swimming. It’s your best bet. Things won’t fix themselves, be it your faith crisis or marital relationships or sexual health in a relationship. I like reading Ekhart Tolle in these kinds of situations…and meditate and get grounded. Then keep growing despite the challenges we have. Like the lilly that grows in the mud…actually because of the mud…we have to keep reaching and fighting for our fulfillment and happiness and faith.
I think it is worth it. That’s a lot of blathering about nothing…but…I guess I just try to express that I understand how it can feel hopeless sometimes…and if anyone wants to PM me for more specific questions, I’m happy to get more detailed about how I approach things…and realize I have lots yet to learn from each of you on how you pass through trials.
Life is interesting.
nibbler wrote:That’s another fun little aspect about humans, as I understand it men and women peak sexually at different times.
It almost seems the universe is programmed against us sometimes…for whatever reason…but perhaps it is the best way God knows we need to be among all this imperfection in order to find true joy…one way or another. I still find hope there are good things to be found in church, in marriage, in life.
Quote:Perhaps the only thing I can say is…just keep swimming. It’s your best bet. Things won’t fix themselves, be it your faith crisis or marital relationships or sexual health in a relationship.
Thanks Heber for your thoughtful post. You give me hope!
Thanks Heber! As a participant and not a moderator, I want to say one thing – and as a moderator I don’t want it to turn into a debate. (How’s that for wearing two hats simultaneously? 
Quote:“We teach our children that sex is bad; that you shouldn’t have those feelings; that its nasty and inappropriate. You should save it for someone you love.”
That is four incorrect statements– and those sort of incorrect statements are a vital part of the dysfunctionality that exists among some members of the LDS Church. The operative word in the three incorrect statements is the collective “we”. The LDS Church itself also does not teach those things.
Individual members of the Church teach that sex is bad, nasty and/or inappropriate, but the percent is low; the vast majority of members of the Church teach that we should wait until marriage to have sex (which is a gift of God meant for marriage) – NOT that we should have sex with someone we love, without qualification. That reality matches the teachings of the Church itself, which shouldn’t be a surprise.
When it comes to these sort of discussions, it is important that we avoid incorrect hyperbole – even if our own experiences match the hyperbole. The element of / assistance in “staying” that this facilitates is a broadened understanding of the diversity that exists in the Church and the same type of understanding that so many of the extreme beliefs about which we hear are neither universal nor standard. Increased perspective is foundational to increased peace.
Old-Timer wrote:As a participant and not a moderator, I want to say one thing – and as a moderator I don’t want it to turn into a debate. (How’s that for wearing two hats simultaneously?
“We teach our children that sex is bad; that you shouldn’t have those feelings; that its nasty and inappropriate. You should save it for someone you love.”
That is four incorrect statements– and those sort of incorrect statements are a vital part of the dysfunctionality that exists among some members of the LDS Church. The operative word in the three incorrect statements is the collective “we”. The LDS Church itself also does not teach those things.
Individual members of the Church teach that sex is bad, nasty and/or inappropriate, but the percent is low; the vast majority of members of the Church teach that we should wait until marriage to have sex (which is a gift of God meant for marriage) – NOT that we should have sex with someone we love, without qualification. That reality matches the teachings of the Church itself, which shouldn’t be a surprise.
When it comes to these sort of discussions, it is important that we avoid incorrect hyperbole – even if our own experiences match the hyperbole. The element of / assistance in “staying” that this facilitates is a broadened understanding of the diversity that exists in the Church and the same type of understanding that so many of the extreme beliefs about which we hear are neither universal nor standard. Increased perspective is foundational to increased peace.
Ray….I wanted to post a few things and ask a question. I think I was the one who made that statement above that you quoted,…but it wasn’t me: it was a family and marriage therapist who was commissioned by the Utah Area Authorities to visit the wards in SL County during their 5th Sunday
BECAUSE THE AREA AUTHORITIESfelt there was a problem. The word “We” was used by this man to describe what was happening, according to his understanding because of the HUNDREDS of LDS families he was working with, in the Salt lake Valley. You mentiioned that the “pencent[age] is low” of how many family teach children that sex is bad and/or inappropriate. I wonder if you can share your data and why you have come to this conclusion. I know, at least for myself, I base my understanding on the following data:
1. This man was commissioned by the Area Authorities. Someone up at that level, who has a better perspective than the general membership and knows what is happening, felt there was a compelling need to do what was done. He said there was a problem in the SL Area with how we have and are teaching our children about sex.
2. I have spoken with Laura Brotherson, who wrote a best-seller for LDS families called “And They Were Not Ashamed”. It is Laura’s professional opinion, now herself being a family and sex therapist, that the “Good Girl Syndrome” (GGS) is a serious problem in MANY LDS marriages and families. The GGS is a direct result of religious indoctrination that pits sexuality and spirituality against each other. It is not uniquely LDS, but it is definitely a problem in LDS circles.
3. Jennifer Finalyson-Fife wrote a dissertation that looked at LDS Women and sexuality in patriarchal communities. I own a copy of that paper and have read it carefully. I’ve also heard her on various pod-cast lectures and so forth. She contends that there have been some problems. Unless I am mistaken, 3 out of her 15 dissertation interviewees (which is 20%–a significant number) had some pretty big problems, which did trace back to their religious underpinnings.
4. Dr. Lori Schade at Suncrest Counseling in SLC lectured on this topic, and was very direct to say that from her perspective, and having the vantage point of being a BYU professor and director of clinical training for therapists, that a significant problem still exists–teachings are damaging in many respects.
You mentioned that speaking in “hyperbole” is dangerous, and making sweeping statements can be problematic. I know, for example, that I was hurt by teachings growing up. My friend Tiffany was, my friend Kimberly was, my friend Roger was, my friend David was, and probably a dozen others were….all in Utah. But I didn’t base my statements on what I have found out through my limited conversations–I based what I said on what these experts said above.
The church itself even admits that a problem can exist in this area:
Sexual Intimacy is Sacred and Beautiful wrote:
• When we often focus on the negative consequences of breaking the law of chastity, it can sometimes be challenging for children to understand that sexual feelings are good. It is important to teach that these feelings are wonderful and can help us develop healthy relationships when they are expressed appropriately. Help your children understand the relationship between the sexual feelings they have or will develop and the sexual behavior that should be reserved for married couples. Teach that sexual feelings are a gift from our Heavenly Father and should be treated with respect.
Ray, I’m not saying the church blatantly teaches sex is bad (at this point at least,…but at one time they made sex for pleasure and anything outside of child birth bad), but culturally what is the church?…teachings, or people, or….?
Damage has been done and continues to be a problem in pockets. I have made what I consider solid and non-hyperbola statements backing why I shared that quote above.
And I’m sorry to be doubling down on this….I want to be understood.
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