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Heber13 wrote:
So, DA, could you define a prophet for you that still works, despite how others in church place emphasis on prophets?
My definition of a real prophet would be someone that provides inspired answers that withstand the test of time more often than not. Because LDS Church Presidents have quite often not been able to do that I think they should let go of the idea that they are completely trustworthy prophets and start to downplay or eliminate this notion in lessons and talks. As far as I’m concerned there is nothing inspired about simply repeating existing scriptures and established traditions we have inherited from previous generations. Based on the track record of LDS prophets and apostles so far I think the best bet is to just assume they are almost always speaking as men and that almost everything they say is almost certainly not a direct revelation from God.
Interesting response, DA. Because in my inbox today, I received this GEM:
Quote:“Today is not different from ages past. The Lord does not love the people of our day any less than in past times. One of the glorious messages of the Restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ is that God continues to speak to His children! He is not hidden in the heavens but speaks today as He did in ancient days.”
—President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, “Why Do We Need Prophets?”, Liahona, Mar. 2012
It just makes me think that perhaps its about the same today as it was for prophets of the past that we have captured in the scriptures.I don’t think prophets today are less accurate than in the past. I wonder if the scriptures are just better at relaying the more accurate teachings, and leave out some of the others. It could be that prophets have always been inspired at some times, but speaking as men other times, and when we are judging the living prophet, we want him to be accurate 100% of the time.
Wasn’t it Orson Pratt that said regarding revelation that if you were right 1 out of 10 times with prophecy, you are doing pretty good (or something to that effect)?
Heber, I think that is a phenomenal insight. Our scriptures focus on what the people at the time saw as the answers that were correct – but, for example, if you look only at the end of the world prophecies and interpret them literally, the track record isn’t good for anyone at any time. Heber13 wrote:Interesting response, DA…Because in my inbox today, I received this GEM:
Quote:“Today is not different from ages past. The Lord does not love the people of our day any less than in past times. One of the glorious messages of the Restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ is that
God continues to speak to His children! He is not hidden in the heavens but speaks today as He did in ancient days.” —President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, “Why Do We Need Prophets?”, Liahona, Mar. 2012
It just makes me think that
perhaps its about the same today as it was for prophets of the pastthat we have captured in the scriptures…I don’t think prophets today are less accurate than in the past. I wonder if the scriptures are just better at relaying the more accurate teachings, and leave out some of the others. It could be that prophets have always been inspired at some times, but speaking as men other times, and when we are judging the living prophet, we want him to be accurate 100% of the time. I don’t have anything against the idea of revelation in general; what bothers me are the ideas that purported revelations should be given preference over other (more reliable) sources of information and that Church members should automatically accept whatever LDS prophets say without questioning it. Personally I doubt that there have ever been any prophets that really deserve this level of trust. For example, even Moses doesn’t really sound that credible to me as an error-free spokesman for God based on what we read in the Bible.
So claiming that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Ezra Taft Benson, etc. were not necessarily that different from Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc. as far as we know doesn’t really help give me much confidence that their ideas should be treated as if they all came directly from God. In past decades it was easier to ignore some of the questionable things Church leaders have said and done so it was not so difficult to maintain the myth of nearly infallible prophets before but now the internet and books on Mormon history have exposed more problems with this idea and it is just a matter of time before many more Church members become aware of this.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:So claiming that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Ezra Taft Benson, etc. were not necessarily that different from Moses, Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc. as far as we know doesn’t really help give me much confidence that their ideas should be treated as if they all came directly from God.
I think that is fair, if you are putting as much merit in modern prophets as past prophets, then it just comes down to how you feel about prophets in general, and if you feel we really NEED prophets or not. But one could accept prophets and accept we need them, even if realizing past prophets in the bible and modern prophets today have limitations, even if beneficial. Would you agree?
Quote:Why Do We Need Prophets?Posted: 30 Mar 2012 08:00 AM PDT“God’s priceless instructions to humankind are found in the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. In addition, the Lord speaks to us through His servants, as He will again at the upcoming general conference.”
—President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, “Why Do We Need Prophets?”, Liahona, Mar. 2012Quote:Why Do We Need Prophets?Posted: 13 Apr 2012 08:01 AM PDT“I can quote scripture, I can try to expound doctrine, and I will even quote a bumper sticker I recently saw. It was attached to the back of a car whose driver appeared to be a little rough around the edges, but the words on the sticker taught an insightful lesson. It read, “Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you.”
[snip]
We are not perfect.The people around us are not perfect. People do things that annoy, disappoint, and anger. In this mortal life it will always be that way. Nevertheless, we must let go of our grievances. Part of the purpose of mortality is to learn how to let go of such things. That is the Lord’s way. Remember, heaven is filled with those who have this in common: They are forgiven. And they forgive.” —President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, “The Merciful Obtain Mercy”, General Conference, Apr. 2012I like this quote.
Can I just repeat this again for emphasis….the church is saying this about everyone, including prophets (notice the “We” coming from the member of the 1st Presidency):
Quote:We are not perfect.
That feels right. I might say it a few more times.
They are not perfect. We are not perfect. I am not perfect.They do things that annoy, disappoint, and anger. THEY DO THAT! THEY KNOW THEY DO THAT! They ask me to forgive them for not being perfect. Heaven is filled with people who are forgiven for their imperfections, and who forgive others. So, as part of my relationship to the church, I will never view them as the final authority on all things, because they are not perfect. I only give that to God, who is perfect. So, while I ask God to forgive me of my trespasses, I will forgive the church for theirs. I hope to build a healthy relationship with church people by forgiving them when I am ready to, when I can, when it is possible for me to do so. I want them to forgive me, be tolerant with my imperfections, and accept me for who I am.
If they can extend that to me, and I can work on extending that to them…I can stay and build a healthy relationship.
If it can’t be done, then a possible solution is to walk away from it. But as of today, I’m willing to keep working on the relationship, and still believe there is value in believing I need prophets in my life to help me do this.
Quote:“Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you.” . . . We are not perfect.
Those two sentences (and the entire talk, really) were the highlight of the conference for me.
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