Why do you believe in Christ?

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Then I have another question — if people can accept the atonement and believe in it without any evidence (as well as the possibility it is not even true), why do they (myself included) have trouble accepting the Church as the only true organization and all that it implies?

This is just what the gods are telling me. The gods tell me that the concept of the Atonement is real. They don’t tell me that Jesus is real. He may or may not be. I don’t care.

The gods tell me that the Mormon church is a pathway, one of many, that people can use to find peace in this life. The gods do not tell me that the LDS church is the one and only true church and the kingdom of god on earth. It’s taken me a long time, but I finally just decided to quit kicking against the pricks, and start listen to what the gods are telling me.

Soooo……I don’t accept the common narrative or LDS belief about Jesus. Nope, not even close. And I certainly don’t accept the LDS church as the only true organization and all that it implies. It doesn’t feel right to me.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

…I have another question — if people can accept the atonement and believe in it without any evidence (as well as the possibility it is not even true), why do they (myself included) have trouble accepting the Church as the only true organization and all that it implies?

Not that I put that much stock in the absolute necessity or literal truth of the atonement to begin with, but the main difference I see is that most of this whole Jesus story is truly in the domain of faith because it is fairly consistent and I don’t see any convincing evidence to directly discredit it. Also, I wouldn’t say there is no evidence whatsoever; we have anecdotal evidence or hearsay originally provided by the men telling this story so you can either take their word for it, assume they were wrong for whatever reason, or defer judgment about it but you can’t really show that many convincing reasons to explain why exactly they were wrong.

However, with the whole “one true church” claim there is no shortage of evidence and contractions to directly discredit this idea as far as I’m concerned. So to me believing in the “one true church” claim in spite of all the reasons to doubt it would not be an act of faith or speculation about what is unknown but instead nothing less than ignorance and denial. Also, even if we assume they are both fabricated myths, to me the Jesus story is still mostly positive because it gives people hope for an afterlife, that they can be forgiven for any mistakes, etc. but I think the “one true church” claim is actually cult-like, unnecessarily divisive, and promotes judgmental and intolerant attitudes that typically do more harm than good.

[Anonymous]

SD, what I’m saying is that, in many cases, I really don’t care much if something is literal or figurative – as long as the meaning is powerful and real to me. Hence, I can relate to a loving Father-God who wants his children to become like Him; I can relate to a Savior / Redeemer / Lord / Master / Judge / Friend / etc. who is an advocate for me with God, the Father; I can’t relate to an older brother stepping in to suffer for me. I am the oldest son in my family, and I’ve never wanted an older brother. It just doesn’t mean much to me as a construct.

Now, whether or not Jesus literally felt every single bad thing that happens to me in my life (and, by extension, everyone else who ever lived) – or whether or not he felt terrible, excruciating “representative” pain – or whether he experienced a vision of Hell that ripped him apart spiritually (kind of Alma, the Younger’s vision on steroids) – or whatever other construct has been used by people to make sense of the concept – those details don’t bother me in the least. I really don’t care. I care deeply about the principle and concept of an atonement, and I care deeply about the principle and concept of “Christ” (“anointed one”) – but I really don’t care about the exact specifics. It’s the concept and principle that are empowering, not the exact details.

So, do I believe in Christ? Yes – in my own way, deeply and passionately. I really, really, really love the idea – so I choose to accept it on faith, since it is something for which I hope that I can’t see.

[Anonymous]

This gets toward the heart of my HP lesson Sunday. If I could rephrase a scripture like this — would you agree with it?

Faith in the atonement is “hope for things which are not seen, which may or may not be true”…

[By the way, as I said, I accept the atonement, but as I’ve started questioning EVERYTHING I once believed in my Church experience, it seems like an important item to decide how I REALLY feel about it, not just what I’ve been told. It might help for me to restate some of the areas that I have reconstructed over the last two years so this doesn’t seem pointless:

1. Inspired or semi-inspired nature of Church leaders

2. Tithing

3. Garments

4. Appropriate attitudes toward traditional believers

5. The uncorrelated Mormon’s relationship to his children in the faith.

6. Civil vs Temple marriage, including peace with the one year waiting period given its buffer for couple’s learning about each other. I see it as an inadvertent blessing to those who choose it include non-member family, as it gives them time to experience the relationship. Before I just detested it.

7. The need to be at peace with traditional believers who have objectionable beliefs

8. Resolution to tension between Church service and personal/mental/family health…and the appropriateness of boundaries]

[Anonymous]

The worst part about religion is that you are molded to believe it since you are born and you are given very little options to work around once you finally figure out what you want done in your life. And though you can pretty much change it as you grow up, there is that sort of responsibility to follow what you are bound with.

[Anonymous]

I was raised in the LDS church. There was some a couple years back that I really didn’t have any Faith in Jesus. I think my biggest issue is that I was trying to KNOW that Jesus was the Savior. I did plenty of research on the Archaeological evidences that Jesus was the savior. Well I felt cheated and short handed when I found that there was plenty of evidence that proved him not to be.

There are books that didn’t go into the Bible. These books make Jesus seem like a good man but not the Son of God. In fact some of the earliest of Christians appreciated the teachings of Jesus but did not believe him to be divine. They saw him as a good teacher or a prophet.

I saw on the news that a bone box was found containing the Bones of Jesus. On the box it said ” Jesus Son of Mary.”

I learned that the shroud of Turin (the burial clothes of Jesus) was a fake made by Leonardo da Vinci. The image was really a self portrait imprinted using a process similar to photography.

With all this in mind I made the choice that I don’t need to know.

I started reading through the 4 gospels of Jesus. I feel at peace with the teachings and the overall message. I do not KNOW but I have faith. I do have faith that the atonement of Jesus allows me to repent of my sins as I continue to grow.

There is a part of me that wonders “What if there really is no atonement?”

To that I answer ” Well I’m sure the superior powers (whoever or whatever they may be ) will forgive me for my imperfections as I grow on my Journey.

I don’t always pray in the way I was taught, however I will many times end my prayers in the name of Jesus Christ.

[Anonymous]

greenapples wrote:

…With all this in mind I made the choice that I don’t need to know.

I started reading through the 4 gospels of Jesus. I feel at peace with the teachings and the overall message. I do not KNOW but I have faith. I do have faith that the atonement of Jesus allows me to repent of my sins as I continue to grow.

There is a part of me that wonders “What if there really is no atonement?”

To that I answer ” Well I’m sure the superior powers (whoever or whatever they may be ) will forgive me for my imperfections as I grow on my Journey.

I don’t always pray in the way I was taught, however I will many times end my prayers in the name of Jesus Christ.

i love your post — it uplifted me.

i think it important to recognize what we don’t know, and what we may never know. there are a host of historical thinkgs we will never know for sure. some of these are ‘highly unlikely’, but many, most, are really a who knows? question. to me, if it doesnt matter, then suspended judgment works.

but for things i consider highly unlikely, another strategy may be necessary. it often matters. take, for example, the creation account, especially the literal interpretation of young earth. it is possible that god created a young earth in 6 days or even 6000 years. but, it is so unlikely as to have a probability of .00000000000000000000001 or less. but how does it matter? if we take the bible literally, then we must reject valid science and consider that god is a liar. neither outcome is desirable.

another unlikely is the idea that jesus cursed the fig tree. it is just a very weird story, so one might say it doesnt matter. but what does it communicate about god’s nature if we allow it to be true?

closer to home, i find it extraordinarily unlikely that polygamy and specifically polyandry came from god as practiced by BY and JS. it matters. my grandmother’s life was severely damaged by this heinous “principle”. it violates a huge number of principles of basic morality.

same deal with blacks and the priesthood.

many will say about historical issues that they are no longer relevant. they are because the church makes a falsifiable claim: “if you follow the prophet you will never be led astray”. this claim is easy to reject if i can find a single instance where the prophet taught a false principle as doctrine. adam god, polygamy, blacks being withheld from priesthood are all evidence of false, misleading doctrines. it matters, because by continuing to make the infallibility claim while promoting institutional discrimination against gays and women forces people do do wrong things.

so, i appreciate that there are some things do not matter. not knowing may be an acceptable strategy for them. i also think that we morally have the obligation to reject material falsehoods that harm people.

just my opinion…

[Anonymous]

Kudos :clap: to you Silent Dawning for starting this post back in December. I don’t know why i didn’t post to this thread earlier. i would like to write more about this topic but i’m still tired and will post more later.

[Anonymous]

My belief in Christ has always been my corner stone…and probably what made me question the whole gospel to begin with. IMHO the LDS church relies far to much on works and too little on the Atonement. Teaches far too much on works and far far far too little on grace. We are brought up to believe that if we do all the works we will make it to the highest level of the CK…which is not true. If we do all the works we can, keep all the commandments, live as perfectly as we possibly can, we are not going to make it to any kingdom anywhere without Christ.

And amazingly it was the Tibetan Book of the Dead (Buddhist) that made me really start believing in Christ, that and Buddhist teachings. Yes I believe there is more than one right path to take to find God. I do believe that Christ is a real God who came to earth to bridge the gap. What’s on the other side could be what the LDS church teaches. I don’t think the whole truth has been revealed to us, nor do I think it ever will be on this planet or in this plane of thought because I think we can’t handle it in this state.

There is so much we don’t understand or have knowledge of, and I don’t think we are supposed to have that understanding or knowledge right now. That’s not our mission in this life. We are spiritual beings on a humans mission (Lewis quote I think), learning to be humans. Not humans learning to be spirits. Our job right now is to be human, love being human, and enjoy being human. The rest will come back to us later, after we are done being human.

[Anonymous]

I believe in Jesus in the sense that, to me, the atonement represents the mind of god, the love of god, and the ability and power of god to bring all men/women to him. Whether this is accomplished in the way that is traditionally taught is not important … to me. These things are unknown and unknowable, and in the end, I don’t really think it matters whether or not the stories in the NT happened in a literal historical sense and whether or not we think they did, as long as they have meaning to us.

[Anonymous]

after one short stretch of inactivity and social disaffection i came back to church and finally came to terms with Christ as a creator of this world. the book of mormon implies it but i wasn’t ready to accept this doctrine before my disaffection with church. i just saw Christ as a savior for humankind from sin and heavenly Father’s son. i was reading the book of mormon and God was beginning to open my eyes to the reality of Christ as the creator and not just the savior.

i guess at that period of time i was ready to accept the truth that Christ was the a creator of this world(earth). in the past i couldn’t wrap my mind around that truth and maybe it didn’t even make sense to me until i attempted a comeback after the initial period of inactivity and social disaffection in the ward i had had struggles with.

the scripture below finally made sense to me:

(moses 1:33)

Quote:

And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.

(http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/1?lang=eng” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/1?lang=eng)

i believe (after reading “Kolob’s Theorem”, as well as passages from the doctrine and covenants, and the pearl of great price) that the Milky Way galaxy is our God’s dominion and that Christ and Heavenly Father could very well have created all stars within our galaxy. i can’t prove that of course but i believe it. believing this makes more sense to me than that of the belief that our Heavenly Father and His Son are the creators of everything in our universe. there is comfort in me knowing(believing) that our God’s dominion isn’t everything in the universe – just this galaxy. considering what is in our galaxy, the stars within it seem to be quite a number (400 billion stars estimated by the astronomy community) and seems to correspond with the scripture below:

(Abraham 3:9-16)

Quote:

9 And thus there shall be the reckoning of the time of one planet above another, until thou come nigh unto Kolob, which Kolob is after the reckoning of the Lord’s time; which Kolob is set nigh unto the throne of God, to govern all those planets which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.

10 And it is given unto thee to know the set time of all the stars that are set to give light, until thou come near unto the throne of God.

11 Thus I, Abraham, talked with the Lord, face to face, as one man talketh with another; and he told me of the works which his hands had made;

12 And he said unto me: My son, my son (and his hand was stretched out), behold I will show you all these. And he put his hand upon mine eyes, and I saw those things which his hands had made, which were many; and they multiplied before mine eyes, and I could not see the end thereof.

13 And he said unto me: This is Shinehah, which is the sun. And he said unto me: Kokob, which is star. And he said unto me: Olea, which is the moon. And he said unto me: Kokaubeam, which signifies stars, or all the great lights, which were in the firmament of heaven.

14 And it was in the night time when the Lord spake these words unto me: I will multiply thee, and thy seed after thee, like unto these; and if thou canst count the number of sands, so shall be the number of thy seeds.

15 And the Lord said unto me: Abraham, I show these things unto thee before ye go into Egypt, that ye may declare all these words.

16 If two things exist, and there be one above the other, there shall be greater things above them; therefore Kolob is the greatest of all the Kokaubeam that thou hast seen, because it is nearest unto me.

(http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/3?lang=eng” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/3?lang=eng)

after all i said above i realize i didn’t quite answer the question – why do you believe in Christ ?

i believe in Christ because all i have ever learned about Christ is a comfort. i like having someone like him to look up to and emulate. he was the epitome of love and wisdom – a truly loving big brother.

[Anonymous]

wayfarer wrote:

greenapples wrote:

…With all this in mind I made the choice that I don’t need to know.

I started reading through the 4 gospels of Jesus. I feel at peace with the teachings and the overall message. I do not KNOW but I have faith. I do have faith that the atonement of Jesus allows me to repent of my sins as I continue to grow.

There is a part of me that wonders “What if there really is no atonement?”

To that I answer ” Well I’m sure the superior powers (whoever or whatever they may be ) will forgive me for my imperfections as I grow on my Journey.

I don’t always pray in the way I was taught, however I will many times end my prayers in the name of Jesus Christ.

i love your post — it uplifted me.

i think it important to recognize what we don’t know, and what we may never know. there are a host of historical thinkgs we will never know for sure. some of these are ‘highly unlikely’, but many, most, are really a who knows? question. to me, if it doesnt matter, then suspended judgment works.

but for things i consider highly unlikely, another strategy may be necessary. it often matters. take, for example, the creation account, especially the literal interpretation of young earth. it is possible that god created a young earth in 6 days or even 6000 years. but, it is so unlikely as to have a probability of .00000000000000000000001 or less. but how does it matter? if we take the bible literally, then we must reject valid science and consider that god is a liar. neither outcome is desirable.

another unlikely is the idea that jesus cursed the fig tree. it is just a very weird story, so one might say it doesnt matter. but what does it communicate about god’s nature if we allow it to be true?

closer to home, i find it extraordinarily unlikely that polygamy and specifically polyandry came from god as practiced by BY and JS. it matters. my grandmother’s life was severely damaged by this heinous “principle”. it violates a huge number of principles of basic morality.

same deal with blacks and the priesthood.

many will say about historical issues that they are no longer relevant. they are because the church makes a falsifiable claim: “if you follow the prophet you will never be led astray”. this claim is easy to reject if i can find a single instance where the prophet taught a false principle as doctrine. adam god, polygamy, blacks being withheld from priesthood are all evidence of false, misleading doctrines. it matters, because by continuing to make the infallibility claim while promoting institutional discrimination against gays and women forces people do do wrong things.

so, i appreciate that there are some things do not matter. not knowing may be an acceptable strategy for them. i also think that we morally have the obligation to reject material falsehoods that harm people.

just my opinion…

That was quite the Jump from talking about Faith or belief in Christ to talking about the unfavorable teachings of Mr. Young and Mr. Smith Jr.

I was quite angry with those teachings as well.

However I’ve moved passed that anger.

I’ve spent time outside of the church. I am now back in. I have developed a different perspective. I choose not to agree with all the teachings of the prophets and church leaders of the past and present. However I graciously appreciate many of the teachings and standards of the current LDS church.

If there is ever a time where I mostly disagree with current teachings then I will simply leave.

Regardless I will always have faith in a higher power and will have faith in Jesus Christ.

[Anonymous]

greenapples wrote:

That was quite the Jump from talking about Faith or belief in Christ to talking about the unfavorable teachings of Mr. Young and Mr. Smith Jr.

I was quite angry with those teachings as well.

However I’ve moved passed that anger.

I’ve spent time outside of the church. I am now back in. I have developed a different perspective. I choose not to agree with all the teachings of the prophets and church leaders of the past and present. However I graciously appreciate many of the teachings and standards of the current LDS church.

If there is ever a time where I mostly disagree with current teachings then I will simply leave.

Regardless I will always have faith in a higher power and will have faith in Jesus Christ.

like you, i have journeyed beyond the faith for a spell, and i remain in now with a different perspective. i appreciate most of the teachings of the church, and find them unique and beneficial. of the things i find to be not true, most of these teachings are benign, and i choose to ignore benign falshoods.

However, in the spirit of Christ, i am not obliged to support teachings that are both false and harmful. please look carefully at my post:

wayfarer wrote:

many will say about historical issues that they are no longer relevant. they are because the church makes a falsifiable claim: “if you follow the prophet you will never be led astray”. this claim is easy to reject if i can find a single instance where the prophet taught a false principle as doctrine. adam god, polygamy, blacks being withheld from priesthood are all evidence of false, misleading doctrines. it matters, because by continuing to make the infallibility claim while promoting institutional discrimination against gays and women it forces people do do wrong things.

so, i appreciate that there are some things do not matter. not knowing may be an acceptable strategy for them. i also think that we morally have the obligation to reject material falsehoods that harm people.

is it so much of a jump from Christ’s teachings of love for all to a rejection of teachings that tend to villify gays and minimize women?

take this sunday, for example. someone quoted tad callister’s GC speech saying that every word of the book of mormon is the word of god and correct. if the book says that people cursed with blackness will become white if they are righteous, is it right that such blatently racist teaching is accepted as the word of god? callister’s talk, no matter how well meaning, is wrong — it is false doctrine and harmful teaching. Moroni’s cover page alludes to the mistakes of men that might be in the book. by accepting that the book is directionally ‘true’ in spite of its human expression and failings, because it points to the savior and eternal life — this is the Way to understand the gospel as taught. to require acceptance that it is literally true in every word is both idolatrous and harmful because it requires acceptance of false, racist teachings (amidst sublimely divine other truths).

in priesthood, someone asked whether we should get spiritual confirmation of a new prophet, most said yes, but one person said that our spiritual confirmation doesn’t matter, because the Lord will never lead us astray. should we sit idly aside while people preach the false doctrine of not seeking spiritual confirmation because “when the brethren speak, the thinking has been done”?

i have no anger on the historical patterns of the church, and i am grateful that polygamy and black discrimination are over. but i repeat: the church’s hisorical behavior regarding polygamy and blacks matters, because the patterns of cover-up and discrimination continue today and harm people in my own family.

how much better it would be to openly explore history for lessons learned, to embrace our responsibility to seek personal revelation, and then to collectively reject and speak out against injustice and harmful teaching. my hope is silly, because it won’t happen collectively– but this does not absolve my moral obligation to politely oppose and correct harmful false teaching. there is a time and place for speaking up, and if guided by the spirit, i have seen where most are grateful of the correction when done properly and humbly.

i hope this explains my ‘jump’.

[Anonymous]

Now I see the reasons for the Jump. It’s all good.

[Anonymous]

wayfarer wrote:

how much better it would be to openly explore history for lessons learned, to embrace our responsibility to seek personal revelation, and then to collectively reject and speak out against injustice and harmful teaching. my hope is silly, because it won’t happen collectively– but this does not absolve my moral obligation to politely oppose and correct harmful false teaching. there is a time and place for speaking up, and if guided by the spirit, i have seen where most are grateful of the correction when done properly and humbly.

Perhaps the more we study and follow what Christ taught, the more we are moved to individually approach such issues about the Church with a humble and moral obligation. Suggesting a “cafeteria” approach may connote negative tones to some who equate the approach with less than 100% commitment, but it is not so. Commitment sometimes requires a mature approach, choosing what I may think Jesus would want me to do, as I strive to develop characteristics like His.

I believe in Christ, because I believe that He is my guide to truth. I am grateful the Church helps me learn more of Him, but I want a personal testimony of Christ, not go through the Church or any other source to have that testimony.

[Author]

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