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I’ve read through some posts on here about the topic of staying. There was a really interesting one from 2013, but I thought an update would be nice. So why do you stay? Have your reasons for staying changed over the years? What is your definition of “staying”? This is something I’ve been thinking over a lot lately. Maybe I consider myself an agnostic mormon or NOM? I’m doubtful it’s “the one true church”, but I think it’s still useful for having a relationship with God. For now we stay because change is scary and I think we are still processing everything. Church has been part of our identities for so long. We are taking everything very slowly. We still go to church a couple times a month. I gave a talk recently but declined to teach Relief Society. We also declined callings as Librarians.
In general my reasons for staying are probably because I felt like it was a good foundation for me growing up (and hope it will be good for my kids), it helps give me a sense of community (very large reason), and it gives me a place to serve and think about my relationship with God/others. The thing is I wonder if it will be more detrimental to my kids in the long run. They are small and aren’t really indoctrinated yet. I like the principles of clean living and the idea of my kids having a relationship with God; however, I wonder if it will be strange for them to learn about principles at church and then see mom and dad not living them correctly? I recently stopped wearing my garments at night (it’s so hot and I’m so much more comfortable) and occasionally when I’m at home I’ll wear some mid-thigh shorts. Also we stopped paying most of our tithing and want to give more liberally to charities instead.
Anyway I suppose those are my ramblings about my thoughts and concerns about staying. I would love to hear your answers though. Do you feel you have a healthy relationship with “The Church?” Would you stay if your spouse wasn’t TBM?
VioletFire wrote:
So why do you stay?Mostly because it is something our family does, and so i look for meaning to keep trying and make it worth it.
Quote:Have your reasons for staying changed over the years?
Yes, very much. I expect they will keep changing.
Quote:What is your definition of “staying”?
Still attending church is staying to me. Even if not every week, but often.
VioletFire wrote:
Do you feel you have a healthy relationship with “The Church?”I think so. I think I can see it for what it is, so it is more healthy than in the past when it caused so much fear in me. I think I accept where I’m at with it, and also see the good it has to offer. Truly cafeteria style.
Quote:Would you stay if your spouse wasn’t TBM?
My wife is not TBM, and we both stay. We are both remarried after failed temple sealings, and learned a lot through those experiences. Our kids get benefits from church as we keep them involved…having good mormon friends and activities is a good thing, good standards while dating and going through high school is of benefit. We get good things from it as a family. It is good to be reminded of good lessons and find opportunities to connect with others and serve others and think about God in our lives.
The church doesn’t have to be more than what it is for me to stay connected to it. Attending church is a way for me to practice my religion, and if I can stay charitable in thought and deed even if I’m unique. It helps me learn to not seek approval of others for what I believe, or to succumb to the temptation to conform to what everyone else is. I practice managing my emotions while I sit in church, and remind myself I’m not so different from everyone else. We’re all on this planet to learn things, and we learn it differently.
Church is good for me to do that.
And of course, I skip when I want to, and don’t often feel guilty about it. To me, that is what a healthy relationship is. I get to do things for me as well as sacrifice for the church at times too…but it isn’t all one-sided. It is balanced and healthy.
VioletFire wrote:
So why do you stay? Have your reasons for staying changed over the years? What is your definition of “staying”?
I stay because of family and community (it’s complicated). I stay because I haven’t found anything else to “trade up” for. I stay because leadership roulette has played out in my favor and the upper leadership hasn’t tried to shove me out the door, but rather has cultivated an environment where we work together to communicate and find balance.
VioletFire wrote:
This is something I’ve been thinking over a lot lately. Maybe I consider myself an agnostic mormon or NOM? I’m doubtful it’s “the one true church”, but I think it’s still useful for having a relationship with God. For now we stay because change is scary and I think we are still processing everything.
I am not qualified to figure out if the church is “the one true church” for anyone else but myself (and to a certain extent, my family). For now, the LDS church is the church for me because it is where I have a community. Since I am in the process of figuring out whether a relationship with God is salvageable at this point in my life, and what it would look like – we haven’t gotten to claims of authority yet.
VioletFire wrote:
Church has been part of our identities for so long. We are taking everything very slowly. We still go to church a couple times a month. I gave a talk recently but declined to teach Relief Society. We also declined callings as Librarians.
Slow is good. My husband and I are still processing what my faith transition means to us. My husband is the branch executive secretary, so I support him in that by getting the girls ready for church on my own. I sub in Primary a lot – mostly nursery coverage because I have a clingy toddler. I help with Achievement Days because I have an 8.5 year old in the program.
My family is an extra needs family with some quasi-visible challenges that limit our collective resource pool. We don’t fit (or desire to give up ourselves to fit) into neat pigeon holes. However, my faith transition has taught me that no one really fits the pigeon holes well, so I can still belong to the community if I want to and if it is not harmful to my family or myself.
VioletFire wrote:
In general my reasons for staying are probably because I felt like it was a good foundation for me growing up (and hope it will be good for my kids), it helps give me a sense of community (very large reason), and it gives me a place to serve and think about my relationship with God/others. The thing is I wonder if it will be more detrimental to my kids in the long run. They are small and aren’t really indoctrinated yet. I like the principles of clean living and the idea of my kids having a relationship with God; however, I wonder if it will be strange for them to learn about principles at church and then see mom and dad not living them correctly? I recently stopped wearing my garments at night (it’s so hot and I’m so much more comfortable) and occasionally when I’m at home I’ll wear some mid-thigh shorts. Also we stopped paying most of our tithing and want to give more liberally to charities instead.Anyway I suppose those are my ramblings about my thoughts and concerns about staying. I would love to hear your answers though. Do you feel you have a healthy relationship with “The Church?” Would you stay if your spouse wasn’t TBM?
My perception of the the relationship I have with “The Church” varies daily. I think I am at a place where I am learning to perceive what that looks like to me, and what the vision of what I want it to be (and what it wants to appear like in my life) meet. The church is more human and less divine then I always assumed it was. This is good because I can revise my expectations for it, and more meaningfully join in if I desire to do so. This is bad, because I now assume that if I don’t set boundaries – the church as an institution can and will make judgement calls in its interests over my own interests.
EXAMPLE/SOAP BOX: In October 2017, Elder Nelson came to our stake for a visit and set up meetings and his wife held a R.S. meeting. Saturday afternoon a Priesthood Leadership Meeting was held that my husband needed to attend, while at the same time in a different building, a R.S. meeting was held. The majority of the leadership in our branch is held by couples – so a good 2/3 of active families with children were impacted.
Here are the options that could have happened:
1) Stake R.S. coordinate with Stake Y.W. and Stake Primary to set up child care at either building – or a separate building.
2) Branch Council set up child arrangements.
3) Crickets – Everyone “assumes” that the families impacted will handle their child care arrangements. A lot of non-member “play dates” were set up.
4) Other Option Available*
5) Not Attend
We originally were going to have me take our baby and go to the meeting, while my husband took our 8.5 year old with a kindle to his meeting. However, the 8.5 year old turns out to be sick with a stomach bug, so I held down the fort at home.
I understand that this is my perception – that a church that cared about families with kids would make arrangements at an above Stake level for leadership meetings for those kids is an assumption I made on my part. I understand the principles of agency and sacrifice here that more traditional members use in their narrative. For me, the more pragmatic no-one-seemed-to-care-to-assist-with-the-arrangements (I even offered to watch the kids for our branch with local Y.W. support and got crickets) tells me that the leadership above the stake level does not care enough to talk to the leadership families with kids about potential logistical options to the stake or branch levels – and if they don’t care enough to take care of the parents attending these meetings, then they don’t care about me as a parent (other then advising me on how to raise my kids). That’s fine, the organization has that right – and it could be any message given above stake level never made it to the stake level, or to the branch level.
But if I was running a church organization and had the resources to take care of the needs of my attendees (aside from the snack situation), then I would bring it up as something to look at and I would reach out to the other groups to provide coverage. And if I was constrained from doing anything, I would probably be honest about it to those I served.
VioletFire wrote:
So why do you stay?
For all its problems, I still love the Church. I love the people. Also, it’s important to my wife. She doesn’t make me go, and hasn’t made any ultimatums. But I love her and want to support her.VioletFire wrote:
Have your reasons for staying changed over the years?
Yes. When I was young, I went because I was a kid, and that’s what families do. Later, I went because it’s true. Now, I don’t believe it’s true and I’m a real grown-up, so the only reason that’s left is my love for the Church, and my love for family. I guess you could say, I have lost many reasons for staying, but the reasons I have left are good enough for me.VioletFire wrote:
What is your definition of “staying”?
I attend Church and all the ward activities. I contribute in class where I can, and am careful not to toss around any heresy. I chose not to hold a TR or calling, and I don’t clean the Church. My wife pays tithing on 5% of our income, and I give my 5% to God in my own way (Feeding America and DWOB). When my daughter is old enough, I would willingly accept a calling in the nursery. My daughter has severe separation anxiety, and it would be nice to give my wife a break. As it stands, I usually play with her in the hall when I can’t relate to or don’t like the lesson.
VioletFire wrote:
This is something I’ve been thinking over a lot lately. Maybe I consider myself an agnostic mormon or NOM?
Not really a question, but I’d recommend against labeling yourself. Labels are for other people. Who you are and what you believe is unique to you.
VioletFire wrote:
Do you feel you have a healthy relationship with “The Church?”
Once I decided I couldn’t be “married” to the Church, but wanted to remain “just friends”, our relationship improved. For all its benefits, “marriage” means investing most of your time and emotional effort. It’s a contract, to stick with one another, no matter what happens. Pre-marriage they talk a big game, and at the wedding they make the highest promises. The expectations we set are often crushed. Spouses tend to take one another for granted. They first hand experience the other’s greatest flaws, and often find it hard to be forgiving.
On the other hand, “just friends” expect a whole lot less, and forgive a whole lot more. We don’t expect them to meet all our needs, or to fully understand us. We don’t feel that our friends will stand by us or admire us no matter what we do, so we tend to be on our best behavior. Friendship itself is full of kindness and tolerance, in a way that often not seen in marriage. In many ways, friendship brings out our best selves. Since I gave “the Church” the “let’s be just friends” talk, I am much more happy and comfortable in our relationship.
VioletFire wrote:
In general my reasons for staying are probably because I felt like it was a good foundation for me growing up (and hope it will be good for my kids), it helps give me a sense of community (very large reason), and it gives me a place to serve and think about my relationship with God/others. The thing is I wonder if it will be more detrimental to my kids in the long run. They are small and aren’t really indoctrinated yet. I like the principles of clean living and the idea of my kids having a relationship with God; however, I wonder if it will be strange for them to learn about principles at church and then see mom and dad not living them correctly?
There’s this episode of Rick and Morty (
S02 E05,Quote:
Beth:”I don’t know what to say. I mean, summer is doing really well here.”Jerry: “She’s aced every test in potato class, and look how important potatoes have become!”
Beth: “She’s not getting pregnant or doing drugs or missing curfew…”
*Sinner drifts by*
Sinner: “Please help me. You can reach me if you try. PLEASE HELP ME!!!”
Beth:”That’s not our business, as long as Summer is thriving.”
The whole episode is a pretty insightful take on religion as a whole, without specifically denouncing any particular set of beliefs. Yes, religion greatly helps our children in many ways to be better, morally upright members of society. It can also causes us to do some silly things, and make correlations where there is no causation (whether or not any particular religion is “true”). But it can also causes us to do things, and excuse things which are objectively wrong.
My point is, the Church, even if objectively “true”, is a mixed bag. You and your children will be blessed by it. But you’ll also probably be hurt by it as well. The goodness doesn’t make up for bad, but the bad also doesn’t take away the goodness. It’s important to sift through the lessons it teaches.
To quote Brigham Young:
Quote:“What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not.”
1) I guess I consider my relationship mostly “healthy.” I suppose it depends on the definition of healthy. It’s alive and not in intensive care at the moment though. There are certainly things I disagree with, I rarely go to Sunday School, etc. And sometimes even something kind of old that I thought I might have a handle on comes up and the dark side suddenly rises up. 2) Hmm. I don’t know if I can play the what if with my spouse not being TBM. She is TBM, and I partly go because of her (that is, to keep the peace). But I do get some of my own satisfaction from going many times. I guess I might go less often without her and I would likely not stay past SM most of the time. But everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth (Mike Tyson) so it’s hard to say.
Overall I’d say I stay because this is where I’m most comfortable and because of family ties, defining staying as attending church and not having my name removed. Those reasons have probably changed and will probably change. I actually don’t think about it much, honestly. I do find some value in worshipping and particularly in the sacrament – but I’m also not opposed to the way other churches do worship (most of them anyway).
AmyJ wrote:
child care arrangements.
This is a pet peeve of mine. We live in an active, participative, self-reliant, and duty bound religion. DW was once in a presidency meeting and she brought up childcare for an RS activity. The response she received was that the husband needed to step up and give their wives a night off. Of course this does not really take into account the single mothers or women married to non-member husbands that might not feel super supportive of taking the kids so their wives can attend this meeting.
DW would offer my services as childcare helper for years to help ensure that this was provided. All I ask in return is that they make me up a plate of whatever refreshments they are having.
VioletFire wrote:
So why do you stay? Have your reasons for staying changed over the years? What is your definition of “staying”?
I stay because I believe the benefits to staying outweigh the costs. I believe that over the years I have slowly disentangled my identity from the church. Mormonism no longer defines me. It is something that I do – not Something that I am. I define staying as participating in the church to a degree that I can maitain relationships of fellowship with my church community and extended family.
VioletFire wrote:
I wonder if it will be strange for them to learn about principles at church and then see mom and dad not living them correctly?
DW and I have had this discussion often. She was worried about confusing the children by exposing them to different ways of doing things. Ultimately, I feel that indoctrinating them in black and white terms may be the bigger disservice. I want my children to be positive, productive, flexible, and respectful. I want them to know that drinking beer does not disqualify someone from being a good person. I also want them to know that an individual being kind of judgey about other people drinking beer does not disqualify them from being a good person.
VioletFire wrote:
Do you feel you have a healthy relationship with “The Church?”
Yes, I believe that I have created healthy boundaries that limit the amount of church abuse (perhaps better understood as mistreatment since abuse can be such a loaded term). I will not give or surrender of myself to the church to the point that I am overly vulnerable. OTOH, My expectations of the church and it’s members are similarly low. I realize that most people lead busy & preoccupied lives and I tend to forgive them for not being aware of or particularly responsive to my family’s every need. I like Dande’s “just friends” analogy. I do not rely on the church as my only friend. I can diversify my friendship base and have different friends for different contexts and activities – church friends, work friends, basketball friends, play group friends, community service friends, etc. Some of my friends are better at fulfilling some of my needs than others. To expect any one friend to fulfill all of my needs all the time would not be realistic or fair to anyone.
VioletFire wrote:
Would you stay if your spouse wasn’t TBM?
It is more than just my wife that tethers me to the church. In fact, sometimes after a frustrating event DW is tempted to stop going to the LDS church that we might more fully participate in a different church where we have friends. I tend to talk her down from these impulses as I know that she would regret and mourn the loss of some of our LDS specific benefits eventually. My kids, my parents, my in-laws, uncles, aunts, cousins, nieces, and nephews are all part of the LDS heritage tapestry. I am not particularly anxious to sever myself from that sense of belonging.
I could see DW and me becoming less active as we move into our empty nest phase (10 years away) – still not burning any bridges but maybe just needing less regular contact with the church.
My upbringing in the LDS Church was wonderful. I was allowed and encouraged to be myself, even when it came to seeing some things differently than many people around me. I stay for a number of reasons: to give back to my tribe, since my wife is an interesting mix of “TBM” and individual member (much like me but with different distinctions between the two classifications), because it has been a good foundation for my children (due partly to me trying to model my own parents’ acceptance and to teach them to be themselves and see things as they do without pressure to conform), for what I see as a gloriously expansive and progressive theology (even with the doctrinal elements I don’t like from the past and present that I attribute to the incorrect traditions of our fathers), to be a support for other members who are unique and might feel alone otherwise, out of comfortable habit, etc.
I am fully active. I have held almost every local calling imaginable, except Bishop and Stake President (thank goodness). I have been on the High Council three times, in three different stakes. I was a counselor in the Stake Mission Presidency way back in the day. I am a pinch-hit speaker in our ward when an assigned speaker backs out at the last minute. Part of my current calling, articulated when I was set apart, is to provide my unique perspective to the councils in our ward. The member of the Stake Presidency who set me apart used that phrasing, even though he is about as traditional as it gets. I hold a temple recommend and was a temple worker and coordinator until my educational program made it impossible to continue doing that for now. I pay tithing on net income, since I never “have” the difference between net and gross that is taken from my check before I get it (which means paying on gross simply makes NO sense to me). I serve on my own terms, even though I am fully active. I participate in what I can and feel ZERO guilt when I can’t do more.
I interject my views regularly in church, but I NEVER do so in a way that I believe will be harmful to others who hear me. I seek to uplift not tear down, especially when opposing views brings joy and peace to others – except when commenting about practices or policies I believe are harmful, and even then I try hard to be as kind and charitable as possible in what I say.
I stay because Mormon is who I am – and I can be Mormon while being what I believe to be Christian and without being an asshat. I can be Mormon and be a true helper and servant and support.
Roy wrote:My kids, my parents, my in-laws, uncles, aunts, cousins, nieces, and nephews are all part of the LDS heritage tapestry. I am not particularly anxious to sever myself from that sense of belonging.
:thumbup: VioletFire wrote:
So why do you stay?Mostly because my family is involved. Also since I don’t think I could belong to another church if the LDS one hasn’t delivered.
Quote:Have your reasons for staying changed over the years?
Pre-commitment crisis — testimony.
Post-comitment crisis — see above — family.
Quote:What is your definition of “staying”?
Not having my name removed, serving as much as is convenient without making too much sacrifice.
Quote:
Do you feel you have a healthy relationship with “The Church?”Not great. I don’t have a lot of respect for parts of it, although there are parts I still admire.
Quote:
Would you stay if your spouse wasn’t TBM?
Probably the same level of activity. Maybe less.
One recent example of why it is good to stay…. My son is the unfortunate victim of our divorce.
He lives with me during the school year and visits his mom during the summer.
She moved to Utah.
This was his first summer with her in Utah, at the age of 15.
New. No friends. No connections.
But…the ward they live in reached out to him and asked him to go to youth conference. Not knowing anyone, he said he would go none the less.
The YM president and president of the teachers quorum visited them in their home. They gave him the info and made him feel welcome.
He went to youth conference and had wonderful experiences with a well organized youth week of activities including service projects and also making things with his hands like pioneers. He loved it.
He met kids who invited him into their group. Kids who were good kids, and nice, and really funny. He met cute girls with good moral standards and fun to be around.
After youth conference the kids he met have stayed in touch inviting him to play basketball and go see movies with them and hang out.
He now has a new set of friends.
All happening a state away from me and his high school friends back home.
As he told me all about it over the phone…he said how much his testimony has grown, he learned so many things about the restoration that helped him feel good about himself.
He wants to now study the D&C on his own this summer and feels like he has made a whole new group of friends.
I’m so grateful for the church organization that provides opportunities to my kids. I know their experiences will vary by child…but they get to have the opportunity to experience things and make up their minds what they believe. At least they get the chance to experience good things.
For that, I’m grateful.
It doesn’t change what I believe about doctrine or stage 5 faith.
Simply….it is worth it to stay when my family benefits from it.
I am a churcher. I think religion, run well, (any religion) can be a source of good. I tried on different churches through out the massive transition part. In each one I found positives and negatives. Eventually it was smoother to stay with the community of my upbringing then to change. Do I wish we could incorporate some of their stuff in ours – Yes. I wish we would change stuff on our own, too. I am here because I chose it. No one else in my family (living at home) attends. It’s my deal and I am comfortable.
Thanks for all the replies. I’m so sorry it’s taken me so long to respond but I have been lurking here reading the replies and many of the other posts. Heber13 wrote:My wife is not TBM, and we both stay. We are both remarried after failed temple sealings, and learned a lot through those experiences. Our kids get benefits from church as we keep them involved…having good mormon friends and activities is a good thing, good standards while dating and going through high school is of benefit. We get good things from it as a family. It is good to be reminded of good lessons and find opportunities to connect with others and serve others and think about God in our lives.
Thanks for your reply Heber. Do your children know that you guys are not TBM? How do you talk to them about it? Do you live all the standards still? I think this is my biggest concern. I don’t care about alcohol or coffee or anything, but man getting into some gym shorts at night without garments on sure does make me happy.
AmyJ wrote:I stay because of family and community (it’s complicated). I stay because I haven’t found anything else to “trade up” for. I stay because leadership roulette has played out in my favor and the upper leadership hasn’t tried to shove me out the door, but rather has cultivated an environment where we work together to communicate and find balance..
I think I am mostly staying because of family and community right now. And I totally agree that I haven’t found anything to trade up for. I just don’t know how I feel about my children being told about stories glorifying people like Brigham Young. I got back and forth a lot.
dande48 wrote:I attend Church and all the ward activities. I contribute in class where I can, and am careful not to toss around any heresy. I chose not to hold a TR or calling, and I don’t clean the Church.
I am leaning more and more to not holding a TR if I stay. As time passes I wear my garments less. They are very uncomfortable and hot. I don’t even care about the modesty thing– they are just so dang uncomfortable! We went on vacation recently and I didn’t wear them at all. It was so freeing. I felt like I could enjoy my time outdoors so much more. I was way more present and in the moment because I didn’t feel like I was sweating to death. It was such an amazing feeling. I wish I could feel that free here. Do you have children? How do you broach the subject with them?
I’m ok with helping out with activities or whatnot, but I don’t feel like I’m in a position to teach any longer or to have a calling that commits me to being there every sunday.
dande48 wrote:There’s this episode of Rick and Morty (S02 E05, around the 12:20 mark), which really stuck out to me. To summarize the plot: A giant alien “head” visits earth. As part of their reality TV series, they subjugate the “lesser races” to participate in an “American Idol”-like competition. The main protagonist, Rick, knows what’s going on, but the rest of the populace does not. Because the head is so giant, its enormous gravity causes all sorts of natural disasters. Combined with a number of misinterpretations with what the giant head says (it speaks to and judges Rick’s “Get Schwifty” performance, but the whole world, oblivious, can hear it), a cult forms around worshiping the giant head. The Smith family joins this cult, especially when they see the positive influence it has on their daughter, Summer Smith. She gets good grades, as much improved morals, isn’t getting pregnant, is super respectful toward her parents. BUUUTTT… the cult also has some negative aspects. For example, it sacrifices the “sinners” (ranging from goths, to people who talk during movies), to the Great Head in the Sky, by strapping them to a bunch of balloons and letting them drift away.
Haha I have seen this episode actually. Thanks for sharing this anecdote. This is a very true statement, and it actually makes me wonder I’m staying at all. I don’t want my children being taught that Mom and Dad are sinners because we don’t go to church every week and don’t wear garments. I am starting to wonder if down the line a non denominational church would be better for us. I do enjoy my community and neighbors though and not being out the “outs” with all our TBM family. I definitely don’t expect too much and love your “just friends” analogy. I think I’d be okay with a more casual relationship with the church and staying but not sure how it’d effect our children. I think my husband is really nervous about that.
Roy wrote:DW and I have had this discussion often. She was worried about confusing the children by exposing them to different ways of doing things. Ultimately, I feel that indoctrinating them in black and white terms may be the bigger disservice. I want my children to be positive, productive, flexible, and respectful. I want them to know that drinking beer does not disqualify someone from being a good person. I also want them to know that an individual being kind of judgey about other people drinking beer does not disqualify them from being a good person.
How do you discuss church with your kids? Do they feel torn by what their parents do and what they are taught? I’ve also thought about staying in the church casually but maybe attending different churches occasionally so they can understand people believe different things, but I wonder if that would just confuse them more. I read an article recently that talked about when children see their religious parents teaching things but not acting on those things then their kids are more likely to be athiest.
Roy wrote:It is more than just my wife that tethers me to the church. In fact, sometimes after a frustrating event DW is tempted to stop going to the LDS church that we might more fully participate in a different church where we have friends. I tend to talk her down from these impulses as I know that she would regret and mourn the loss of some of our LDS specific benefits eventually. My kids, my parents, my in-laws, uncles, aunts, cousins, nieces, and nephews are all part of the LDS heritage tapestry. I am not particularly anxious to sever myself from that sense of belonging.
This here is probably my biggest reason for staying. It’s such an interesting line to balance though. It’s also all I’ve ever known.
Also Heber13 wrote about his son being reached out to, and I do agree it is nice having that safety net of people. It’s nice to know wherever you go there is a group of people you can belong with.
There’s a lot of pros and cons to staying. For now we are definitely staying, but more as casual friends. I think we are going to have to get more of a game plan as the kids get older and start understanding things better. Man oh man do I hope two hour church happens because I think that would help the ward to consider us more active haha.
VioletFire wrote:
“just friends” analogy.
I too like this analogy. It is all about setting and maintaining boundaries. I feel that giving all that the church asks for after my FC would not be sustainable for me (it would cause me to become angry and bitter). Therefore I reduce the church footprint in my life to more sustainable levels. As I reduce my involvement/contributions in the church some of the benefits also reduce. Eventually I find a sustainable equilibrium. For me personally that balance involves me not paying tithing but DW paying, attending church maybe once per month and working the remaining Sundays, not holding a TR, working together with my wife as Cub Scout Bear den leaders (Wednesday nights) and between the two of us basically holding the cub scout program together.
VioletFire wrote:
How do you discuss church with your kids? Do they feel torn by what their parents do and what they are taught? I’ve also thought about staying in the church casually but maybe attending different churches occasionally so they can understand people believe different things, but I wonder if that would just confuse them more. I read an article recently that talked about when children see their religious parents teaching things but not acting on those things then their kids are more likely to be athiest.
We have had many conversations with the kids. When they ask a question about heaven or hell I tell them that different people believe different things. We have a faith tradition that has some good thoughts and principles. I do not feel that I teach things but then not act on them. We belong to a faith with some very dogmatic ideas that we may not agree with. We discuss how to interact with such a community without being disrespectful.
I do believe that inherent in my approach is that many people fervently believe and teach things about God that may not be true. This I believe opens the door to people claiming evidence for what they believe about God that does not withstand scrutiny. That in turn may lead to a disbelief in God. I do not know if my children would be better off being given only one black and white worldview over the more flexible but less certain worldview I am providing. I hope that I am giving my children enough tools and space that they can take an active role in charting their course and choosing their path. If they become atheists, I hope that they are happy, well adjusted, service and civic minded, and moral atheists – fully respectful and even appreciative of others from different backgrounds and with different perspectives.
Roy wrote:
We have had many conversations with the kids. When they ask a question about heaven or hell I tell them that different people believe different things. We have a faith tradition that has some good thoughts and principles. I do not feel that I teach things but then not act on them. We belong to a faith with some very dogmatic ideas that we may not agree with. We discuss how to interact with such a community without being disrespectful.I do believe that inherent in my approach is that many people fervently believe and teach things about God that may not be true. This I believe opens the door to people claiming evidence for what they believe about God that does not withstand scrutiny. That in turn may lead to a disbelief in God. I do not know if my children would be better off being given only one black and white worldview over the more flexible but less certain worldview I am providing. I hope that I am giving my children enough tools and space that they can take an active role in charting their course and choosing their path. If they become atheists, I hope that they are happy, well adjusted, service and civic minded, and moral atheists – fully respectful and even appreciative of others from different backgrounds and with different perspectives.
Thanks, this is really helpful. This is an interesting journey for our family. I’d love for my kids to have a relationship with God, but really as long as they are happy, moral people that are self-sufficient then I’m happy.
Quote:Do your children know that you guys are not TBM? How do you talk to them about it? Do you live all the standards still? I think this is my biggest concern. I don’t care about alcohol or coffee or anything, but man getting into some gym shorts at night without garments on sure does make me happy.
We don’t talk about it directly, not even among my wife and I…more just live the way we do and talk openly about things that bug us but things we love.
We skip a lot when there is something better to do with our time, and go when there is not.
We talk about issues enough our kids know we have loose standards and don’t take it too serious.
Periodically I drop statements like…”I never covenanted to wear garments all day and night…but throughout my life which I do. I just take a break from it sometimes too.”
I agree…wearing gym shorts at night is nice.
If you find that stuff “so nice” and feels good, give yourself permission to do things that help you mentally and spiritually to feel good.
It’s your season to have good things in life and not live in fear.
If you talk about things with kids in a positive way about it being good for you, not a critical way if how “wrong” the church is, they are more likely to support you, or they should.
I find, even if my kids disagree, bit they see me happy, they are fine with it. We eat out, we skip, they know there are times I don’t wear G’s…..it’s all moderation and balance and healthy…not extreme Orthodox to extreme heretic. It’s middle ground and wise. They pick up on that after a while. Then, when something in the church changes…they rush to me to talk, knowing I’m not gonna lecture them about defending the church, but I’m open minded.
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