Why I’m here. (Really long, sorry!)

[Anonymous]

Joni wrote:

I truly don’t want to leave the Church, as I think it would be shooting myself in the foot, and because I believe in eternal families – the last thing I want to see is another wife given to my husband, another mother given to my children.

I personally object to this sentiment that I have heard now and again that if we fail to measure up or endure to the end we will be replaced by someone else. Suffice it to say that I chafe at the idea that after a lifetime of commitment, living, and learning together – we could just be cut out and forgotten – to be replaced like an interchangeable cog. This seems to me to be a manipulative tool of fear.

Joni wrote:

I hope someday I can repent of whatever wrong I’ve committed

At the low point in my faith crisis, I came to understand that I will never be good enough for all the things I need to be. This is especially poignant with my kids. I can never be powerful or knowledgeable enough to guarantee that they won’t have their lives taken in some horrible, just sickening way. They trust and depend on me with childlike innocence and the truth is, I am not up to the task to protect them.

How can I repent from my insufficiency when I will always be insufficient and lacking. For me it meant a change in how I see “repentance” and a change in how I understand God’s evaluation methods.

Orson wrote:

…A completely different view of God promotes an idea that when you seek God you are often shown what is for practical purposes a mirror. I know that sounds very harsh but it is not meant to at all. The point is if you can find that hidden seed of love that you have for yourself – latch onto it! Plant it and nourish it! As it grows you may recognize that it is divine and has been all along, …but it was mislabeled and hidden in your personal self-storage.

I really identified with this analogy Orson. It is an alternative way to describe the process I went through.

Joni, I don’t make any claims for the accuracy of my beliefs. I reason that even if my beliefs were not true they would still be useful in that they help me to live a happy, full, and purposeful life. It would be very challenging for me to accept beliefs that made me unhappy and fearful regardless of the source of those beliefs. I do believe that everyone has a right to their perspective but I hope that something is able to change for you as I don’t see any good coming from self-loathing. (that may be too strong a word but it is the closest that I can come up with.)

[Anonymous]

Hi, Joni – Glad you’re here. I look forward to hearing your thoughts about the temple. I hope you can get your depression evaluated. Medication can be really helpful, but there is no drug like the one that was released into my bloodstream when I learned that I didn’t have to believe everything I was taught.

Thanks for your introduction.

[Anonymous]

Orson wrote:

DarkJedi wrote:

…there are different ways to interpret all of that which do not necessarily indicate that God loves you or anyone else as an individual.

Thanks for your comments. I will not deny anyone their personal experience. I also am saying there are different ways to interpret …basically everything. What I was trying to get at is the question — Could there be another way to interpret your experience that could view in a different light the idea that: “love is God and God is love”?

I know it all can get very deep, and personal experience doesn’t always easily translate.

Where I’m coming from is more along the lines of picturing the love of God as the sun. Does it go out? Can we become cold? My personal concept and definition of God is compatible with this idea.

When night comes some people without any knowledge of the solar system could say “the sun is gone” or “it left me” both of which are true in the moment from a perspective — but did the sun move?

We could carry the analogy further but I think my point of view is obvious. I realize we may differ in our understanding of God in some way – but to me a God that could deny love is no God at all.

…A completely different view of God promotes an idea that when you seek God you are often shown what is for practical purposes a mirror. I know that sounds very harsh but it is not meant to at all. The point is if you can find that hidden seed of love that you have for yourself – latch onto it! Plant it and nourish it! As it grows you may recognize that it is divine and has been all along, …but it was mislabeled and hidden in your personal self-storage.

I guess in a way this comes from my own experience. For most of my life I didn’t have a strong feeling of divine love. Honestly I can’t say that I ever sought it that I can remember, but I didn’t feel it. I pictured God as a perfectionist patriarchal figure that was extremely hard to please. It was only when I lost my entire belief structure that I found that “seed” and I decided to rebuild.

I actually don’t think our view is that much different, given your sun analogy. Indeed, I do believe God’s love, like the sun, shines upon all of us. It does not, however, shine individually upon any one of us, nor does it discern upon whom it shines.

[Anonymous]

Welcome. I have almost no time right now, but I want to mention the following:

Quote:

I hope someday I can repent of whatever wrong I’ve committed

Depression messes with perceptions, especially perception of worth, acceptance, love, etc. Feeling depressed and/or being depressed are NOT sins. Period. They are results of mortality, and we have been told that everything that afflicts us simply as a result of being born has been covered already by the Atonement. In other words, the Atonement doesn’t take away those afflictions, but it redeems us from the results of them. Elder Holland said the same thing in his recent General Conference talk, so, PLEASE, first and foremost, try to hang onto that principle – that your depression is not your fault and does not constitute sin which needs traditional repentance. What it needs most is diagnosis and treatment, of whatever kind works for you.

I believe, absolutely, you felt what you felt, but, based on what you have shared, I believe it was not “from God” – and I hope and pray you find a way to find a workable balance that will lessen your depression and help you discover peace, love and acceptance. In the meantime, I hope we can provide a degree of those things for you, as well.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

…A completely different view of God promotes an idea that when you seek God you are often shown what is for practical purposes a mirror. I know that sounds very harsh but it is not meant to at all. The point is if you can find that hidden seed of love that you have for yourself – latch onto it! Plant it and nourish it! As it grows you may recognize that it is divine and has been all along, …but it was mislabeled and hidden in your personal self-storage.

From Orson (sp?)

I agree. I think it is Buddism that teaches that within yourself you find your answers and love. It isn’t very “Mormon”, as we are taught that we must rely on others for most. Also the scripture Matt 10:39 which states “He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it” lends me at least to spending less time worrying about myself. But, I have come to find that it is necessary and empowering to look for that love within yourself. If you are battling depression, I strong suggest getting professional help. I did it and it really helped me learn how cope better and how to TAKE CARE OF MYSELF. Please invest some time for you, just learning to accept/love yourself.

[Anonymous]

Jodi,

Thanks for sharing. I just joined this site and am so glad to be among people with an equal purpose. I feel for your pain. I think that, like some here, most of what makes up the church today is man-made, and therefore imaginary. Some bits have been inspired by god or by inner human goodness or wisdom. I think some of the issues women face in the church are rooted deeply is some of our most basic myths and teachings, and in order to get past those, we need to acknowledge the workings of men in the church. This has helped me heal some wounds I didn’t realize I had. Or if I had them, I shrugged them off as the carnal, evil side of me, that needed to be fixed. Now I feel free to love as I wish, to worship as I wish. I also let myself pray to a heavenly mother sometimes, because I get a different feeling when I do, and it’s good and full of love. I’m not trying to offer up an easy fix for you, just take it slow, meditate, get professional help if you need it, and find understanding people to talk to (like many of the wonderful people here.)

-Rich

[Anonymous]

Sorry to bump an old post, but I saw your comment on another post, Joni and your comment struck me about God not loving you. I don’t know how I would handle receiving an answer like that. I wanted to tell you, though, that I received an incorrect answer in the temple. It was a very distinct, clear answer and I received it the same way that I have received other revelations before. I have always based my beliefs on prayers. I grew up in the church and have ALWAYS had my prayers answered, or if they weren’t, I was able to reason why they weren’t and I could keep on believing. But this one was different. This one I received precise dates that two things were going to happen. Both dates passed and those things did not happen. So in my experience one can receive incorrect answers in the temple. It has shaken my faith in prayer because now I don’t know how to trust the answers I get. So I also understand why you don’t want to believe it could be an incorrect answer, because that comes with it’s own problems. I just wanted you to know that it is possible that it was an incorrect answer. My husband believes that sometimes our own emotions or biases can mess with what answers we receive from God or can seem like an answer from God when they’re not, which makes sense to me. That may have been what it was for me, but still, how can I trust my prayers if my own feelings can get in the way? How do I know that I am for sure open to God’s answer? Just thought I’d share my thoughts with you. I am so sorry that happened to you. I can’t even imagine how painful that would be.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for bumping this up. I didn’t respond this first time.

Joni, I hope things are going better for you. Prayer is a big issue for me too.

My FC started over 20+ years ago. I’m not going into the details.

Our family was facing a real crisis. It concerned my former wife & daughter.

I tried to pray about the situation. At best, I wanted an explanation of why.

If I couldn’t get the why, I wanted comfort or patience. What I got was absolutely nothing.

Everything seemed BLACK. I don’t understand how God allows abuse of children.

We got custody of my daughter & continued to go to church.

My focus was on my ex wife & her new boyfriend. Anytime I went to church, I got angry.

I would hear testimonies on FS & hear people bear their testimony about how God helped

them to find car keys. I got more Blackness & more anger. My brother was a policeman at the

time & I told him that if my ex wife came up dead under suspicious circumstances, he should

come to my house. At the time, I could easily justify killing someone.

I believe now that our emotional & mental situations impact our prayers & how or if

we receive answers. I still have difficulty praying & wonder sometimes if God is concerned about us

personally. It is something I have to work on. I wish us the very best in your situation.

Have you seen improvement in your situation since you’ve been here?

[Anonymous]

For me, it comes down to what your husband has to say about it — not as a male-domination thing, but as your partner in the marriage, and who married you on Mormonism as part of the package deal. Is he supportive of how you feel, willing to give you space, go to the temple without you? All that stuff? Is refusing to renew your TR going to upset your marriage, the stability for your children, or create circumstances you can’t live with?

If your husband is largely supportive or tolerant of your feelings and lack of TR-desire, I would then move on to boundary-setting with the church. Just don’t go to the TR renewal. let it fade away. when the leaders haul you in to talk about it, be vague and let them know that a “TR isn’t something you feel passionate about right now”. Give vague hope and let the moment pass.

Then, decide how much you want the church in your life and act at that level.

[Anonymous]

Hi Joni.

Since you joined the forum I have discovered that my wife believes that God is a polygamist and that he does not value her very much. Unfortunately, this has to do with what she was taught in church about polygamy and the role of women combined with her struggling feelings of self worth. My wife tends to internalize criticism while I deflect.

I still believe that God loves you but I can also tell you that you are not alone in feeling that he doesn’t.

[Anonymous]

Always Thinking wrote:

Sorry to bump an old post, but I saw your comment on another post, Joni and your comment struck me about God not loving you. I don’t know how I would handle receiving an answer like that. I wanted to tell you, though, that I received an incorrect answer in the temple. It was a very distinct, clear answer and I received it the same way that I have received other revelations before. I have always based my beliefs on prayers. I grew up in the church and have ALWAYS had my prayers answered, or if they weren’t, I was able to reason why they weren’t and I could keep on believing. But this one was different. This one I received precise dates that two things were going to happen. Both dates passed and those things did not happen. So in my experience one can receive incorrect answers in the temple. It has shaken my faith in prayer because now I don’t know how to trust the answers I get. So I also understand why you don’t want to believe it could be an incorrect answer, because that comes with it’s own problems. I just wanted you to know that it is possible that it was an incorrect answer. My husband believes that sometimes our own emotions or biases can mess with what answers we receive from God or can seem like an answer from God when they’re not, which makes sense to me. That may have been what it was for me, but still, how can I trust my prayers if my own feelings can get in the way? How do I know that I am for sure open to God’s answer? Just thought I’d share my thoughts with you. I am so sorry that happened to you. I can’t even imagine how painful that would be.

The truth is, I haven’t asked again to see if I get a different answer. It’s been many years since God told me He doesn’t love me, and it’s absolutely possible that I simply got a wrong answer. (It definitely happens. My husband received confirmation that he was supposed to marry a girl he had been dating. He… did not. ) It’s kind of a catch-22 for me: I know I might get a different answer if I asked again, but what if I get the same answer? The experience I had was so painful that I’m not in a hurry to repeat it.

[Anonymous]

Joni, I wish I had perfect advice. I hope you eventually find other ways and places to get some comfort on this question. All I can say is that the most explicit answer I’ve ever had to a prayer – words spoken to my mind – is impossible. I chalk it up to some kind of spiritual telephone game gone wrong and trust the rest of my experience and senses. But it makes me less LDS in the “TBM” sense, since I now know for myself that what we (you, me, President Monson) perceives as revelation might not be.

[Anonymous]

A few years ago my husband gave me a blessing in which he assured me that God does, in fact, love me. (This appears to be in line with the pattern we are taught in the temple, where the husband acts as an intermediary between the wife and God. I contend, however, that if God won’t tell me directly that He loves me, but will only go through my husband, then that is not proof that God loves me.) It turns out that a good deal of the anger my husband has towards me regarding the Church is because of that blessing: he told me that God loves me, so if I still don’t think God loves me, it’s conclusive proof that I hate God and want to leave the Church.

Personally, I’m a little offended that he’s taken my deep spiritual pain, and made it all about himself (how dare you dispute what I said in a PH blessing). Has anyone else dealt with a situation like this? I am a big believer in PH blessings but I also recognize that they aren’t magic – you can give a blessing of healing to someone with cancer and they can totally still die and that doesn’t make it the cancer patient’s fault.

[Anonymous]

Quote:

he’s taken my deep spiritual pain, and made it all about himself

Yeah, I’d be upset. Is this how a lot of things register with him? Or just faith/church issues?

You might have mentioned whether you’ve tried it, but what do you think counseling could do for you? Is the question of God’s love particular and limited to you, or does it feel like a function of being a woman in a world and church that doesn’t always seem to love women?

[Anonymous]

Sorry Joni. I feel for you. And I agree with your thoughts and feelings.

PH blessings are not the same as God speaking to you directly. We don’t need the church, priesthood, or anyone else to have a direct relationship with God. During the dark ages of the apostasy, did God’s love stop because priesthood authority was not on the earth? That goes against the teachings of the church, and how God inspired so many to prepare a way for Joseph Smith.

PH blessings can help. They can be inspiring, as one form of revelation to our souls.

It is not the ONLY form, or the only way.

I remember being taught the relationship triangle many times. With me and my wife at the bottom corners of the triangle, and God at the apex. As BOTH the husband and wife move closer to God, they also get closer to each other. (not just one…not linear one through the other…but BOTH, even if both are doing it in their own way and not identical…but individually and sacred to each.)

It is not taught as priesthood gives the men the right to give the woman her testimony. That is not how it is done. That goes against God’s plan.

While I could understand your husband thinking you got an answer through the priesthood blessing he gave and he felt it was an answer…and that could be frustrating when he sees it that way…you are completely right to be offended by the feeling that you have to accept revelation only through priesthood. Because that is not doctrine. Perhaps that blessing was for him, not you. But…you still need to feel God loves you personally.

However… something to consider… revelation does come in many ways by many people.

I have never seen an angel. That does not mean God doesn’t love me enough to send angels because I want that revelation.

I remember reading this D&C verse:

Quote:

D&C 46:13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.

14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.

I find that an interesting teaching and I ponder if often why different gifts of the spirit are given to different people. But it seems to work that way, and how one person receives revelation does not mean all will receive it the same way. It takes faith.

Also…you’ll notice…this scripture does not say that Priesthood is required for some, and women must have faith in the priesthood. It is not that prescriptive about Priesthood, and so women do not need to go through Priesthood, and people do not need to go through the church leaders.

Rex D. Pinegar wrote:

Each of us has that same responsibility and capability to develop a personal, warm, and loving understanding with the Savior—our Savior, the One who came here to the earth that you and I might have the privilege of realizing our greatest potential.

[Author]

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