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It seems to me the LDS church at least has made the process of Salvation or Exaltation if you prefer a complicated mess of rules and ordinances, where anywhere along the way you are in danger of a misstep that will set you back. It is like a board game where you roll the dice and land on a bad square and have to pay a fine and get sent back 6 spaces. We have a belief system that requires us to get baptized, get the priesthood (if you are male), get endowed, wear garments teh rest of your life, get married, obey the leaders, fulfill every calling, do genealogy then go to the temple often to do the work. It can go on and on. I am not just speaking of time commitment here but what is the rational for all this stuff other than make work projects. If you believe in the atonement, was not this all encompassing and sufficient to save us. Did not Christ really pay the price for us, or do we have to cross every T and dot every I to be saved. What is wrong with the two commandments Christ gave. Love god and love your fellowman. Why can not the whole church be based totally on those two precepts and everything else can take a hike. Do we need these other things to stay focused? Do you believe they are actually important in the process of salvation.? I am not sure I have the answer.
Love God and Love neighbor and self can be done outside the confines of a religious institution. I am sorry to sound negative and cynical, but all the other stuff builds the religious institution (whichever one that may be). Following the rules set out by the church strengthen loyalty of the member to that church. Loyal members are tithe paying members. Preaching that SAVING ordinances are only found within that church creates fear of leaving. Fear of leaving is instilled in many other ways, too. None of it helps “save” us, just keeps us loyal to the institution. I’m sure that a lot of the LDS rules and commandments help many people live better, less selfish lives, though. There are certainly pros and cons!
I think the concept of “exaltation” is what complicated matters. The scriptures teach of salvation and eternal life being the same exact thing. Exaltation was born around the same time as JS was exploring multiple gods, multiple wives and complicated temple ceremonies. Then, eternal life was turned into having children for all eternity.
If we have Love then all the “fluff” rules and institutional commands fall away. If we have Love, we’re golden. Salvation is realizing that we
areOne (and always have been). IMO It is very dificult particularly as a life-long Mormon to get to the place where you can say that the rules, traditions, policies, etc. are not mandatory to my salvation. Only the the Atonement is. After ten years or so of struggling in stage 4 and now trying to reach a positive stage 5, I still feel tugs of doubt or guilt about my decision to pick and choose what aspects of the Church “work” for me personally. But I also know I can NEVER go back to unquestioned obedience to all that is asked at least by the Church as an institution. I hope I am humble enough to do all that is asked of me by the Lord through my personal journey to seek His guidance and direction. But I recognize that MOST active members benefit greatly from the structure and certainty provided by the Church. I’m not sure it is so complicated to them. Rather it is a relief that they know exactly what they need to do. Even if that absolutely does not work for me.
just me wrote:I am sorry to sound negative and cynical, but all the other stuff builds the religious institution (whichever one that may be). Following the rules set out by the church strengthen loyalty of the member to that church. Loyal members are tithe paying members. Preaching that SAVING ordinances are only found within that church creates fear of leaving. Fear of leaving is instilled in many other ways, too. None of it helps “save” us, just keeps us loyal to the institution. I’m sure that a lot of the LDS rules and commandments help many people live better, less selfish lives, though. There are certainly pros and cons!
I do not think you are negative. I think you are exactly right.
just me wrote:Love God and Love neighbor and self can be done outside the confines of a religious institution.
It’s fashionable to diss organized religion, but there are other factors here. Getting together with like-minded people, finding out about similar experiences, finding ways around problems etc. Helping your neighbor also requires a certain degree of framework, which thanks to the annihilation of community in most parts of the Western World is usually through a church or a club.
When Adam and Eve were making animal sacrifice, they were asked why they were doing that. They said, we know not accept that we have been commanded to by God. This is the key to me-If I knew for sure that it was God asking me to do all these things, I would not have a problem. My problem is not knowing what is from God and what isn’t. Most members believe that God speaks through the living prophet so what ever he says they do (even though many don’t anyway). TRUST is a huge factor for me. When Abraham was asked to sacrifice his own son he must have been very well acquainted with the voice of God to trust that much. The problem today is that we have so much deception in the world. People strap bombs around themselves and blow people up in the name of their God. I am just not so trusting anymore, but I do have good instincts and have had spiritual experiences that have led me well in my life, so I follow what I think is right. Quote:I recognize that MOST active members benefit greatly from the structure and certainty provided by the Church. I’m not sure it is so complicated to them. Rather it is a relief that they know exactly what they need to do. Even if that absolutely does not work for me.
This is true generally of most people – as evidenced by the absolute necessity to have articulated laws in all societies. Very few people thrive productively in an environment devoid of order.
Fwiw, I see Mormon salvation as perhaps the least complicated of all Christian concepts of salvation – especially if salvation is defined as non-Mormons tend to do. (Mormonism = pretty much everyone; non-Mormonism = doctrinal litmus test, with exceptions for those in a different religious caste system – sometimes requiring a belief-by-belief examination until an unacceptable doctrine is found) Even when exaltation is added, the overall difference doesn’t change enough to make exaltation more complicated than non-Mormon salvation. (Mormonism = those who try their best; non-Mormonism = doctrinal litmus test, with exceptions for those in a different religious caste system – sometimes requiring a belief-by-belief examination until an unacceptable doctrine is found)
I’m not saying I like or approve of all of the customs and rules that have developed within Mormonism – but I just don’t see them as any more complicated than those of pretty much any other religion.
I agree with Ray — the mormon view of salvation, and its cousin, the Plan of Salvation, is probably the simplest religion I’ve ever looked into. Sure there are ordinances and covenants along the way, but they are directed toward encouraging clean living and good behavior.
The basic saving ordinances of Baptism and Gift of the Holy Ghost are easy to understand, and the commitments are clear and uncomplicated.
And its the only religion that clearly describes what salvation will be like.
I also like the fact that it gives other religions exactly what they expect and promise to their adherents– life with Jesus in an unmarried state without progression toward Godhood — in other words, the terrestrial kingdom. At the same time, it holds forward and even higher degree of “salvation” — life with God and eternal progression — hence the additional ordinances of the temple.
It also explains the oftimes offensive doctrine of other religions — that unbaptized babies and people who never hear about the gospel go to hell. The temple and baptism for the dead helps us see how these people are dealt with fairly.
And most clearly to me — the law of justice and mercy — this concept was brand new to me even though I was raised in a mainstream Protestant Church. No one could explain to me why a Savior was necessary. Then, enter the BoM and its clear explanation of the reason for His coming and atonement.
It was all simple and laid out clearly, unlike so many other religions I’d looked into.
Cadence – your logic, as always, rings true to my ears. The whole Mormon “plan of salvation – temple work – obedience – ordinances-three degrees of glory” doesn’t really cut it for me. It doesn’t cut the mustard when put under the microscope. Sure, it might be better than the other Christian religions currently thriving on the planet – but that doesn’t mean it’s without it’s flaws and problems. I’m with you – I have no answer to the question. I would not have been attracted to a religion with too simple of a system of theology. I took that online religion test once, the one that tells you what religion you should be after a series of questions. It told me I should be Orthodox Jewish 
So perhaps the flavor of Mormonism, with its detail and complexity, serves satisfy a spectrum of the personalities and needs of Gods children.
I probably should clarify just a bit: To me, the LDS Church can be pretty complicated. The full theology is quite complex. It’s the actual idea of salvation that is really simple, to me.
I have been attending a number of mainstream Christian churches since I have moved to Florida almost two months ago. I have made some wonderful friends there and have felt the spirit so strong. I have enjoyed seeing the passion and love they have for Christ. This morning I attended the Nazarene church. It was wonderful. I found the outreach of friendliness and love so strong there. I was made to feel so welcome and safe to give my opinions. Open discussion were plentiful and and my inputs were valued with great enthusiasm. I made some new friends today that seem so nice. One is a hairdresser about my age and some younger couples too. The hairdresser wants me to come to her salon and even work there one or two days a week. The topics were just what I needed in my life right now. Their pastor is about 38 and seems very sincere.
Nevertheless, one of the things I find typical about the mainstream Christian churches I have attended here is the idea of its either heaven or hell. If you do not accept Christ while on this earth you are doomed forever. First of all the Bible does not even teach that as in 1st Peter it talks about Jesus preaching to the wicked of Noah’s time when he was in the spirit world 3 days before his resurrection. So, many have died without hearing of Christ and I cannot believe that God would doom them eternally. This is one thing I like about the lds church and that everyone will have the chance to hear the entire gospel, recognize it and then accept or reject it before being judged. Another theme I see in these other churches is the constant idea of “It’s all about you God, not about us.” They emphasize that man is not important, only God. That makes no sense to me as everything Jesus did was for us and about us. Just like parents do stuff for their kids. The lds teaching of man’s potential makes so much more sense to me. Saying its heaven or hell is like saying there are only A or F students. I also do not believe in the 3 in one trinity like they do. Three separate beings makes more sense to me. Since we are such complex beings and life is so complex, I guess I am appreciating the Mormon plan of salvation as much more merciful and rational.
Brian Johnston wrote:I would not have been attracted to a religion with too simple of a system of theology. I took that online religion test once, the one that tells you what religion you should be after a series of questions. It told me I should be Orthodox Jewish
So perhaps the flavor of Mormonism, with its detail and complexity, serves satisfy a spectrum of the personalities and needs of Gods children.
Makes sense for a certain segment of the population. My problem is I am impatient and do not like to spend time on issues or practices that seem repetitive or of little value to me. All the metaphysical stuff, the rules and ordinances seem cryptic and the long way to the end. But like I said that is my problem.
cwald wrote:Cadence – your logic, as always, rings true to my ears. The whole Mormon “plan of salvation – temple work – obedience – ordinances-three degrees of glory” doesn’t really cut it for me. It doesn’t cut the mustard when put under the microscope. Sure, it might be better than the other Christian religions currently thriving on the planet – but that doesn’t mean it’s without it’s flaws and problems. I’m with you – I have no answer to the question.
Yes this is what really bugs me lately. When you put the critical on on Mormonism or Christianity in general you come away saying “what, who made this stuff up?” To put it in perspective, I have been watching the old Cosmos series with Carl Sagan. It explores the vastness and wonder of the universe and then our very very small place in it. Then I go to church and learn we are the epicenter of all that was or will be. It is not logical reasoning and ignores the realities of what we know through observation and analysis.
To complicate something is to make it seem mysterious and special when it may be simple or even mundane. I think this is what we do in religions. Life or our existence here and now could be as simple as getting experience and learning who we are to move on to the next level. Good or bad you get experience you can use. All the other stuff we throw in are make work projects.
Quote:Then I go to church and learn we are the epicenter of all that was or will be.
Well, I simply would point out that that conclusion is much more obvious and universal outside of Mormonism than it is inside Mormonism – if you look at “pure Mormonism”.
Seriously, if you step back and consider the “worlds without number, numberless gods, eternal increase” implications of full Mormon theology, we are a much less central part of “ALL that was or will be” than we are in the other religious that don’t posit such a scope. We on this world certainly aren’t the epicenter of any other God’s creation or focus, and “we” might not even be considered the epicenter of our own Father’s creations (as opposed to “this earth” or “the Redeemer”) if the full implications of the Garden of Eden narrative in the temple are included. (with reference to what has been done on other worlds)
Mormonism posits that we are nothing AND everything – and I personally really like that particular paradox. As I said, the theology is complex, even if I see the concept of salvation/exaltation as simple and straightforward.
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