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Not much to add, but this is an awesome post. Both my wife and I struggle going to church each week and hearing the laundry list of things that are required for us to make it; as though you the checking items off of the list is the way. Idaho Coug wrote:I recognize that MOST active members benefit greatly from the structure and certainty provided by the Church. I’m not sure it is so complicated to them. Rather it is a relief that they know exactly what they need to do. Even if that absolutely does not work for me.
As Ray said, that is a wonderful view. It worked for many of us too until the time came it no longer worked. Just because it seems now highly legalistic and mechanical doesn’t mean it can’t move a lot of people a giant step forward. “The LDS religion is far from perfect, but it is a giant step in the right direction for a lot of people.”
Tom
This where it starts to come unraveled for me. Old-Timer wrote:Quote:Seriously, if you step back and consider the “worlds without number, numberless gods, eternal increase” implications of full Mormon theology, we are a much less central part of “ALL that was or will be” than we are in the other religious that don’t posit such a scope. We on this world certainly aren’t the epicenter of any other God’s creation or focus, and “we” might not even be considered the epicenter of our own Father’s creations (as opposed to “this earth” or “the Redeemer”) if the full implications of the Garden of Eden narrative in the temple are included. (with reference to what has been done on other worlds)
On the surface it seems fine but then there are the questions. Is Jesus the saviour of this world or all worlds? Is God, the Father, that we worship the Father of all or just of this world? Do we are to assume God the Father is a person who knows me as an individual though one of billions that have, do and will live on this earth is the Father of all the other Gods that have gone on to create and populate their own worlds? Do each of those other worlds created by someone who has achieved godhood have a saviour and go through their own version of the atonement?
I would guess that with time there would be other unanswerable questions arise. For me it’s just not good enough anymore to say that God can do and know all these things because He’s God and that I’ll have to wait and it’s not good enough anymore to see God as visualized in the temple or as in the JS story. If there’s an God it seems to me it’s got to be something else and not just a kindly bearded elderly man above and apart from earth where He sees all and knows all.
Quote:If there’s an God it seems to me it’s got to be something else and not just a kindly bearded elderly man above and apart from earth where He sees all and knows all.
I actually agree with that, GB – and that is not a description of the God I choose to worship. Again, frankly, within Christianity, Mormonism is perhaps the only denomination with enough elasticity in the overall theology to have God be more complex than just a figure like what your sentence describes. Having said that, even your description above is more complex than the Calvinist puppet master who saves or damns us according to his exclusive will – and more complex than Voltaire’s watch maker who initiates creation and sits back to watch it tick/tock through time – but there is a place for a MUCH more complex view of Godhood in Mormonism, since the very concept of Godhood and creation and spiritual evolution within Mormonism is one of the core reasons we are labeled as non-Christian by so many.
I mean that seriously. Where else but in Mormonism would it be even conceivable for me to speak of my own believe in a council of Gods who collectively collaborate to create spirit children (whatever that means)? Where else but in Mormonism would it even be conceivable for me to speak of sealing God’s children into such a collaborative work – where participation in eternal creation in a state of “Godhood” is a possibility (whatever that means)? Where else but in Mormonism would it be even conceivable to posit us as inheritors of godly glory – as “heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ”? That last description is taken straight from the Bible, but where else but in Mormonism is it taken seriously as an indication of our relationship to divinity?
Mormon theology doesn’t describe God as a “kindly bearded elderly man” – even if the visual image we have in the temple suggests that. Mormon theology describes a damner of the most wicked – and a rewarded of obedience – and a loving Father – and a just judge – and a refiner through fire – and a weeping creator. It describes a very complex “personage” who is “perfect” (meaning complete, whole and fully developed – the embodiment of ALL emotions, for example, in their fullness) – in ways that no other Christian theology even comes close to approximating.
We catch a glimpse of that even in the temple when we see God interacting with Lucifer, but we see it much more clearly throughout the entirety of our canon – and, ironically, especially in the D&C, imo.
Old-Timer wrote:Quote:
Mormon theology doesn’t describe God as a “kindly bearded elderly man” – even if the visual image we have in the temple suggests that. Mormon theology describes a damner of the most wicked – and a rewarded of obedience – and a loving Father – and a just judge – and a refiner through fire – and a weeping creator. It describes a very complex “personage” who is “perfect” (meaning complete, whole and fully developed – the embodiment of ALL emotions, for example, in their fullness) – in ways that no other Christian theology even comes close to approximating.Quote:Technically you’re probably right since there’s not an actual canonized theology on the subject and nothing of the sort is taught officially from the pulpit. It’s all conventional wisdom supported by the temple film, Joseph Smith’s first vision, and the statement that “God has a body of flesh and bones, as tangible as man’s, the son also…”. But all the adjectives you use to describe God the Father as you say, a “personage”, who is a real person that is supposed to know me in a personal way. That all by itself is incomprehensible to me. And where it’s interesting to see what’s been extrapolated over the years from Joseph Smith’s teachings, to me it only raises more questions instead of making things more understandable and in the process makes me feel less worthy, able and accepted.
I have always loved the idea that the concept of salvation can be taught at a simple primary level or a deep doctrinal level, depending on the need and ability of the individual. Cadence wrote:If you believe in the atonement, was not this all encompassing and sufficient to save us. Did not Christ really pay the price for us, or do we have to cross every T and dot every I to be saved.
The Godhead has a mission statement: “To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man”. So the Eternal Life part is to provide the opportunity for growth and learning. That requires us to be a part of the process, and we are allowed to cross some “T”s to learn how to do things, even if that is a small part of the whole of it.
It is not just about getting to the destination, but becoming pure and holy so we can stay there.
Cadence wrote:What is wrong with the two commandments Christ gave. Love god and love your fellowman. Why can not the whole church be based totally on those two precepts and everything else can take a hike.
I think the whole church is based totally on these two commandments, and all else hangs on these two Great Commandments.
But how do you love God?
Keep His commandments and Love othersHow do you keep His commandments?
Get baptized, pay tithing, obey the Word of Wisdom, go to the temple, obey the prophets …How do you Love others?
Serve in callings, learn to forgive, teach, be kind, mourn with them, support them, serve themAll the things the church teaches are helping us to follow God’s commandments so we can become more like Him in character. I think there are multiple ways it could be done, the church just teaches this is the way the prophets were taught, so here is a good way to help become better.
Cadence wrote:Do we need these other things to stay focused? Do you believe they are actually important in the process of salvation.?
Yes, I think they help us focus on what to do and how to do it…but the things we are asked to do are not eternally important, just the skills and character developed to know how to become more like God.Quote:From such teachings we conclude that the Final Judgment is not just an evaluation of a sum total of good and evil acts—what we have
done. It is an acknowledgment of the final effect of our acts and thoughts—what we have become. It is not enough for anyone just to go through the motions. The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become.A parable illustrates this understanding. A wealthy father knew that if he were to bestow his wealth upon a child who had not yet developed the needed wisdom and stature, the inheritance would probably be wasted. The father said to his child:
“All that I have I desire to give you—not only my wealth, but also my position and standing among men. That which I have I can easily give you, but that which I am you must obtain for yourself. You will qualify for your inheritance by learning what I have learned and by living as I have lived. I will give you the laws and principles by which I have acquired my wisdom and stature. Follow my example, mastering as I have mastered, and you will become as I am, and all that I have will be yours.”
This parable parallels the pattern of heaven. The gospel of Jesus Christ promises the incomparable inheritance of eternal life, the fulness of the Father, and reveals the laws and principles by which it can be obtained.
Dallin H. Oaks, “The Challenge to Become,” Ensign, Nov 2000, 32–34Quote:who is a real person that is supposed to know me in a personal way
Well, that’s my own experience in a handful of experiences. I don’t know how else to describe them better thant to posit a “real person (or “being”) who … know(s) me in a personal way”. Granted, that’s only a handful of experiences where I can say with certainty that I felt that kind of “knowing me” – but they were exactly that.
Fwiw, I have NO idea whatsoever why I’ve had those types of experiences and others haven’t. I really don’t “get it” intellectually – or, really, in any way. All I can say is that I’ve had them, and I believe “God” knows me in a personal way.
Cadence wrote:It seems to me the LDS church at least has made the process of Salvation or Exaltation if you prefer a complicated mess of rules and ordinances…Did not Christ really pay the price for us, or do we have to cross every T and dot every I to be saved. What is wrong with the two commandments Christ gave. Love god and love your fellowman. Why can not the whole church be based totally on those two precepts and everything else can take a hike…Do we need these other things to stay focused? Do you believe they are actually important in the process of salvation.?
No, I don’t think most of this is very important or necessary and some of it can actually be a counterproductive distraction to many members. It mostly looks like the cumulative effect of many years of faithful members believing whatever they have been told they should do and then passing this on to the next generation without ever questioning the justification for it. Once these rules and rituals have been added to the list it seems like they are very rarely removed or de-emphasized after that.
Sure some of these things might provide some symbolic meaning for people and teach them discipline and many of them are not really that much of an inconvenience by themselves but the problem is that once you start to add everything up it can become very discouraging almost as if we have 1001 different ways to fail. Many times I have thought that I wouldn’t be able to make it to the Celestial Kingdom anyway so why should I even bother to try?
I guess people just can’t leave well enough alone. It looks like the LDS Church isn’t the only one that has added many unnecessary beliefs and complexity to a simpler and more practical brand of morality and theology. It didn’t take long for many obvious corruptions to creep into the Catholic Church and then the Orthodox Church and various Protestant sects split off on their own in many cases introducing new absurdities even worse than the ones they were trying to fix. Now these sects typically try to compete with each other in a cutthroat way leveraging the threat of hell to gain any advantage they can over each other. When you step back and look at this situation it all seems a bit silly to see what people have done while thinking it was in the name of God.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:Sure some of these things might provide some symbolic meaning for people and teach them discipline and many of them are not really that much of an inconvenience by themselves but the problem is that once you start to add everything up it can become very discouraging almost as if we have 1001 different ways to fail.
That’s an interesting thought. Perhaps we are the ones that over-complicate it for ourselves.DevilsAdvocate wrote:Many times I have thought that I wouldn’t be able to make it to the Celestial Kingdom anyway so why should I even bother to try?
I have thought this many times myself. I think when it comes down to it, I don’t know that I’m so motivated by “making the cut” – as much as I am motivated to just want to have peace and happiness, which for me, comes a lot from serving and loving my family and others. I guess I will let the rest take care of itself. I cannot waste my time today worrying about the status I will or will not achieve in the eternities.
I think Brian said it best, either in his StayLDS podcast or one of his posts here (I can’t remember which), where he essentially stated he is mostly concerned with making this life a heavenly home, regardless what happens in the hereafter…that will take care of itself.
Heber13 wrote:DevilsAdvocate wrote:Sure some of these things might provide some symbolic meaning for people and teach them discipline and many of them are not really that much of an inconvenience by themselves but the problem is that once you start to add everything up it can become very discouraging almost as if we have 1001 different ways to fail.
That’s an interesting thought. Perhaps we are the ones that over-complicate it for ourselves.DevilsAdvocate wrote:Many times I have thought that I wouldn’t be able to make it to the Celestial Kingdom anyway so why should I even bother to try?
I have thought this many times myself…I don’t know that I’m so motivated by “making the cut” – as much as I am motivated to just want to have peace and happiness, which for me, comes a lot from serving and loving my family and others. I guess I will let the rest take care of itself. I cannot waste my time today worrying about the status I will or will not achieve in the eternities.
Sure a lot of the pressure to do all these things is self-imposed but some of it is definitely external and has been pushed by the Church as a matter of doctrine or policy. Personally, I think many Church members have traditionally been too nice for their own good and willing to do whatever they are told and sometimes it would be better to know when to say no.
For example, they used to openly condemn birth control and we would see many LDS families with 5 or more children but we don’t see this kind of thing quite as much anymore. My guess is that many active members stopped listening to this idea anyway so then the leaders probably picked up on this and didn’t want to push their luck trying to force this idea anymore. I think the same thing could happen with some of these other rules and rituals too if more members start to think of the LDS apostles and prophets as basically fallible men without getting fed up to the point that they walk away from the Church entirely.
You can almost expect some people to try to impose more and more rigid structure and ascetic ideals on the rest of a group because they assume that if some piety is good then more piety would be better. The problem is that people can’t agree with any degree of certainty on what exactly is worthwhile and what is an unnecessary inconvenience. What seems like a good idea to one person can easily be a major waste of time and effort for another. I don’t understand why people that aren’t really hurting anyone and are trying to do the best they can should be given a guilt trip that this isn’t good enough. Personally I think it would be better to let God decide what is good enough or not.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:Personally, I think many Church members have traditionally been too nice for their own good and willing to do whatever they are told and sometimes it would be better to know when to say no.
I have found the church leaders are more ok with this than I have feared in the past. Saying “No” to things for reasons I explain have always been supported by my bishop. I agree…I think more people should take that control to be comfortable saying no, followed by saying yes as much as possible.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:Personally I think it would be better to let God decide what is good enough or not.
I guess this comes down to mormon doctrine about prophets …
Quote:D&C1: 38: my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same.
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If we have faith that what prophets say lead to salvation IS what God decides is good enough, then saying “no” to something could cause internal conflict of worrying about our salvation.
If the prophet states polygamy is necessary…people will have faith in it. Was that unnecessary? By today’s standards, it seems it is. But will God hold them accountable for today’s standards, or their standards?
I don’t know. I will leave that up to God. But for me and my house, we will serve the Lord by how we are taught are today’s standards, and how we are taught to use our intellect and personal revelation to make it less complicated for me. That way I can keep moving forward, even though I don’t know all things. That is faith, I think.
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