Why is spiritual confirmation not enough?

[Anonymous]

I was reflecting on this as I’ve thought about my own doubts, period of activity years ago, my current doubts and angst toward some of my Church experiences.

I have defintely had powerful spiritual experiences in the gospel which have convinced me it’s true, or at least, more true than any other religion I’ve experienced to date. I had a confirmation to the question “Is the Mormon Church true and should I be a member of it?”. The overpowering spiritual feeling came over me like someone flipped a switch and it lasted for several minutes. I don’t deny it came from God.

Why are these spiritual experiences not enough to keep myself, or others with similar confirmations, enthusiastic and willing to serve wherever we’re asked to serve?

[Anonymous]

Because ask any of your non-member friends if they have prayed and asked if they “know their church is true and should they be a member of it” and they will tell you, YES. And MOST of them are VERY sincere and and have received the same spiritual experience that you and I have about our faith. So the question is, who is getting the correct answer. I would argue that we ALL are getting the right answer – which is ugly because it doesn’t fit what we are taught in SS. It is not the black the white scenerio that we were taught and grew up expecting. So my opinion is we HAVE to change the entire focus and way we view the church. IMO – it is NOT the “one and only true church on the face of the earth” and until we can come to terms with that – it will challenge our faith and lock us into Fowler stage 4, which is a very uncomfortable place to be.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

Because ask any of your non-member friends if they have prayed and asked if they “know their church is true and should they be a member of it” and they will tell you, YES. And MOST of them are VERY sincere and and have received the same spiritual experience that you and I have about our faith. So the question is, who is getting the correct answer. I would argue that we ALL are getting the right answer – which is ugly because it doesn’t fit what we are taught in SS. It is not the black the white scenerio that we were taught and grew up expecting. So my opinion is we HAVE to change the entire focus and way we view the church. IMO – it is NOT the “one and only true church on the face of the earth” and until we can come to terms with that – it will challenge our faith and lock us into Fowler stage 4, which is a very uncomfortable place to be.

That’s a scary thought which rocks central beliefs. Believe me, if I could be a member of a different Church, believing wholeheartedly God wanted me to be there, it would be a relief sometimes. The tithing, time commitment, and feeling that I’m never ever doing enough….my house would be paid off, etcetera as most Church don’t teach “the sacrifice of all things being necessary to produce faith enough for salvation”.

Somehow, I can’t accept that the Lord would tell me to join this Church if it was full of falsehoods, such as an erroneous claim it was the only true and living Church, the statement that turning altogether away from the Priesthood means no forgiveness of sins, the claim of His appearing to Joseph Smith and telling him none of the other churches were correct…..I can’t phathom why a just and loving God would tell someone to align themselves with such extensive untruths. And how can a Church like this be a church blessed by God with such outright deceptions such as that…

While I like the open-mindedness of your statements, and the attraction of being able to belong to a Church which requires less commitment, and still promises salvation, I have a hard time accepting that one, as attractive as it is. Don’t view this as an attack by any means, but I shrink to even think that’s true — it’s as if my spirit won’t let me because I feel it would lead me to apostasy if I started believing it wholeheartedly.

You said

Quote:

“So my opinion is we HAVE to change the entire focus and way we view the church.”

Question — what is the new focus you’re talking about?

Also, are you suggesting the Lord has so many different Churches to serve the needs of a diverse group of people on earth? That there really is one universal church in the end?

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Also, are you suggesting the Lord has so many different Churches to serve the needs of a diverse group of people on earth? That there really is one universal church in the end?

Actually – YES, that is what I believe. That is just my opinion though SD.

I get what you are saying about it being a huge blow to one’s faith. It IS a scary thought, and it does rock the central theme of the the LDS organization. I don’t know if I’m right. I don’t know anything – including “if the Mormon church is the one and only true church on the face of the earth.” I just don’t know. BUT – I do know that I have found some peace, FINALLY, in accepting that for me, that I can believe that there are MANY pathways to spiritual enlightenment, the Mormon church being one of them, that an individual can follow in this lifetime. I personally have not found a better belief system, and I’m not advocating leaving the church. I’m just not “denying” that there may be one out there. And certainly I believe that “the Lord” has provided MANY pathways for his “children” throughout history to find and follow that will help them gain peace in this life, and in their next existence. I believe the “church is true” only in that it “points” me in the right direction to achieve my personal spiritual goals. I’ve been pointed, It’s up to me to figure it out now. I don’t believe that the LDS church will do that for everyone on this planet however, and I think those people can find enlightenment and peace and “go to heaven” if you will, by following their heart, and if that means they need to follow a different path than the LDS church, than so be it. THAT IS JUST MY OPINION.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

You said

Quote:

“So my opinion is we HAVE to change the entire focus and way we view the church.”

Question — what is the new focus you’re talking about?

I’m going to be cautious on this for the time being, – wait a day or two and see what some of “The Wise” have to say first. I will response when I have a little more time to write and edit my thoughts.

It’s a good opening thread SD – Very good food for thought. Out.

[Anonymous]

Hi Silent Dawning. Please read my intro, because I think it will answer your question. Basically, there was a time when God told me three times in my mind at a fast and testimony meeting to go visit the 7th Day Adventist church down the street to get my answers to some serious questions I was having. I got the answers so powerfully there that I needed and then two years later the Spirit told me to go back to the lds church. When I prayed about the 7th day church and other churches, the Lord told me that he works through all churches and that their members are all his children too. I was told that even though the lds church has the fullness of the gospel, not everyone is ready for the fullness and that other churches are stepping stones where people are led to the church that they need at that time. My daughter is in Paster Haggi’s cornerstone church in Texas right now and it has been so good for her. I went to visit the Nazerane church this Wed. night for a bible study class with my Nazarene friend. The lesson was exactly the answer to the tormoil I had been having lately. Each of us can only go by where the spirit has led us at the time. So, like JS said once, “What is right in one circumstance, may not be right in another circumstance. If you got that answer then that means its right for you and apparently you can handle more.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

IWhy are these spiritual experiences not enough to keep myself, or others with similar confirmations, enthusiastic and willing to serve wherever we’re asked to serve?

Just to answer this question I would say this: Because we are still living in the flesh and our mortal existence. And the natural man (the undisciplined man) is the natural enemy to God. It is selfish and lazy. Like I know excercizing everyday would be good for me, and once I get into it I get interested, but generally, I don’t want to get out of bed. The MOTIVATION comes in the doing!

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Why are these spiritual experiences not enough to keep myself, or others with similar confirmations, enthusiastic and willing to serve wherever we’re asked to serve?

Because there is no reliable evidence that those feelings are the spirit. They could be and maybe they are but they are not definitive. I believe we associate them with the spirit because in our culture that is what we have been taught. The rational mind will kick in at some point for many people and they will question the logic and reason of a certain belief system or even the validity of a “spiritual” experience. Many people say for instance have had a powerful witness to do something or follow some path. But after awhile the path is not so clear and seems like not such a good idea.

We can not rely totally on spiritual experience as you describe for the very reason they are not always reliable. They are just one aid to us in making rational decisions.

[Anonymous]

I like that answer Candence. That is kind of what i was “trying” to get at when I said that most people have “spiritual experiences” telling them to join and be members of their church. I think one could even argue that Jim Jones followers would tell you they had had a spiritual confirmation of “truth” — that is if they were still alive.

Look, I think it is wonderful if you are actually getting spiritual confirmation that you need to do this calling or that calling. I sometimes do — but more times than not, it’s actually just my “training” kicking in, the “expectations from my upbringing” kicking in, and the” guilt” kicking in. We have been in positions of the church and understand how callings are made. We know they are not “called by god”, in fact, sometimes it just a matter of “there is no one else left to do it.” (hence my callings right now ). So these callings we have, sure, I’m sure the Lord wants us to help where we can. But I get told by local leaders to do more and more and more — and the spirit tells me “it is true” and I should serve. And then in the same day I get told by the spirit to do less and do less and do less and spend a little more time with the family which means I can’t do the callings. So which spirit is right?

The spirit that I was taught growing up TBM —- IS UNRELIABLE.

Quote:

“So my opinion is we HAVE to change the entire focus and way we view the church.”

Okay, I say this, because the mere fact that you are on this website means you, like the rest of us, have already had a crisis of faith. If not then one could merely go on their way and enjoy a nice Fowler stage 3 existence and not be bothered by all this. But you and I are here. IMO, The focus of the church is to save as many members as possible – which means you and I are “expendable” because we are in the fringe looking back. The church is not going to change their focus. If we want to remain, WE have to change our focus and change the way we view the church.

I used view the church as the one true church on the face of the earth -and every other belief system was false (church of the devil), Our church had infallible prophets who spoke with god, and than would tell me what to do. We had local leaders who would always guide by the spirit and help ME reach the CK – and that questioning them or the history or doctrine of the church would lead me to apostasy, perhaps a loss of priesthood blessings, and eventually lead to my own damnation. I think this is a pretty fair summary of what the majority of LDS members believe? Right. Well, I have changed my view – and don’t see it that way anymore. I have changed my focus of the church, and now see it as a divine institution, (one of many probably) that “god” uses to fulfill his purpose and help people find peace on this planet. The LDS church will work for some, and not for others – and I’m not going to condemn any one who can’t or won’t be LDS – INCLUDING MYSELF. I’ve had many spiritual experiences – and I believe the church is a great tool and points folks in the right direction – in that regards it is true. I plan on staying LDS – but who knows, I’m dealing with LDS church just one day at time, one issue at time, and one LDS member at time. This is just the way I see it. I could be completely wrong. I don’t “know” anything, and I don’t know if ANYONE else can “know” anymore than I do – and that would include some good people that I consider to be prophets and apostles. I think they sincere, and like myself, they know what is true from their perspective and experience — but I don’t think they know what is “Truth” anymore than I do.

AND – if they do KNOW, I doubt they are going to tell – because I don’t think that 80% of the active LDS members want to know or would believe it anyway.

[Anonymous]

Cadence wrote:

SilentDawning wrote:

Why are these spiritual experiences not enough to keep myself, or others with similar confirmations, enthusiastic and willing to serve wherever we’re asked to serve?

Because there is no reliable evidence that those feelings are the spirit. They could be and maybe they are but they are definitive. I believe we associate them with the spirit because in our culture that is what we have been taught. The rational mind will kick in at some point for many people and they will question the logic and reason of a certain belief system or even the validity of a “spiritual” experience. Many people say for instance have had a powerful witness to do something or follow some path. But after awhile the path is not so clear and seems like not such a good idea.

We can not rely totally on spiritual experience as you describe for the very reason they are not always reliable. They are just one aid to us in making rational decisions.

However, neither is reason or intellect reliable. So, if what you say is true, we are left with nothing reliable to rely on for determining the truth. For me, that means divorcing myself from organized religion, as there are so many things that are disturbing about it . It means simply dancing to the beat of my own conscience and saying fooey on the teachings of a particular prophet or organization, as there is no way to determine if it’s true.

However, the spiritual experiences I’ve had been VERY REAL. They make that “indelible impression on the soul”. For me, I experienced them prior to ever reading Moroni’s promise, or hearing it from the missionaries. In fact, that was why I joined the LDS Church — because they were the only ones preaching that spiritual confirmation was the crowning litmus test for truth. And this was consistent with the way I learned to believe in God — through undeniable spiritual experiences.

Let me ask you this — if you believe that spirituality is unreliable in determining truth, and if you believe that intellect and reason can also lead you astray , what do you have left to determine truth?

[Anonymous]

SD – I mean this with all respect, and I empathize with you some after reading your “story” in a different thread… If you feel like your spiritual experiences are “true” and “real,” and that you belong to the “true church,” than just go with it and do the best you can. I don’t think anyone here will tell you you’re crazy because you have testimony and trust your feelings. A spiritual testimony of the “restored church” can be great blessing. I don’t have one, but that doesn’t mean that I believe what you feel is “false.”

I don’t have a good answer why spiritual confirmation is not enough. Spiritual experiences don’t work for me. I try to use A combination of logic, reason and intuition (spirit) to find my way. That’s just me.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Let me ask you this — if you believe that spirituality is unreliable in determining truth, and if you believe that intellect and reason can also lead you astray , what do you have left to determine truth?

I think “The Wise” have done a good job hashing this out over at the other thread you started which relates to this one Intellectual tendencies as salvational stumbling blocks? http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1537&start=10” class=”bbcode_url”>http://www.staylds.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1537&start=10

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

Let me ask you this — if you believe that spirituality is unreliable in determining truth, and if you believe that intellect and reason can also lead you astray , what do you have left to determine truth?

It may be a personal thing. For some what we term spiritual experiences are very powerful and seem to answer questions. for others like me they are not difinative. Feeling something that is akin to a strong emotion and acting on it has proven very damaging to me personally. I often tell people that they are able to follow their spiritual influences because they are yet to confront a major conflict. Many people have followed the spirit trying to do the right thing and it ends up biting them. Then what do you do. You are not allowed to blame God since he is omnipotent so all you can do is say you understood the message wrong and it is your fault. One to many of those experiences pushed me over the edge and I realized for me what I thought was the spirit may not have been. Maybe for others the spirit actually speaks to them and helps them. for me it does not in a manner I can depend on. That leaves me with my own reasoning ability. At least this way if I make a mistake I know it was me and I do not have to beat myself up trying to figure out how I misread God once again.

As I have stated before I actually believe that is how the spirit speaks, by using your brain and intelligence to figure things out. I think in the church we are afraid of using logic and get into a group think mentality and rely on metaphysical things to answer questions that we are perfectly capable of making using the intelligence God gave us.

In the end you need to follow the path that works best for you. Just don’t expect your way to be the right or only way, or even the correct way for the majority.

[Anonymous]

After reading what Candice and CWald have to say, I think I’ve had intense spiritual experiences as a direct result of questions I’ve asked in prayer. They are so undeniable that I can’t get up from the prayer and think “Was that real? or did I just THINK I felt something?”. They actually happened.

For me, it’s not a coincidence when you pray and suddenly your whole body is enveloped in this overpowering spirituality that is so intense you feel ALMOST like you came into the presence of God. And then, when it almost gets too intense to take anymore, it gently subsides. And you get up from the prayer knowing that it wasn’t some chance occurrence — it was too unusual, and too immediate after asking the question to be the result of self-deception or wishful thinking.

This has happened to me twice in my lifetime. The first was when I was 15 and praying to know about the existence of God. At that time, I knew nothing about the LDS Church,. The second time happened when I prayed to know if the Church was true, about 5 years later upon taking missionary lessons. And there have been other powerful feelings as a direct result of prayer since then as a direct result of consciously inviting the Spirit to change the hearts of other people in lesson’s I’ve taught.

This discussion is helping me understand a few things in my history. First, when I investigated the Church, I fasted for 3 days solid without food or water to get that same kind of confirmation I had when I was 15. I also prayed regularly, asking for that kind of answer and waiting, listening, in my prayers.

It never came. So, in spite of my positive feelings about the Church during missionary lessons, I told the missionaries to go away and stopped attending Church. Moroni’s promise had failed, I thought.

Then, about a year later, the question of truth vexed me again, and I knelt down and prayed again with very little preparation, and that same overpowering experience that happened to me as a teenager came again. In response to the question “Is the Mormon Church true and should I become a member of it?”. So, I immediately got baptized.

I believe the reason I’m here at StayLDS is as much a result of my own human weaknesses, problems forgiving people who hurt me, and lack of continued spiritual seeking, and self-discipline in sustaining the selflessness that is expected of us, and not a lack of spiritual confirmation. Also, the fact that there is also negative intellectual evidence of the Church’s truthfulness (as there is in any religion) – one needs to be constantly refreshing and renewing their spiritual experiences to make sure these faith-detracting experiences don’t eclipse the original knowledge a person has been given. It’s back to Alma 32 where you have to keep nourishing the spirit for those powerful spiritual experiences to have the motivational power they once had.

I also wonder if the Lord held out on giving me an answer to the “Is the church true ” question for so long because He knew that there is strong accountability for having the kind of firm confirmation I received, and knew I’d struggle to remain faithful after I had it. And with that, would come accountability.

It also sounds like Candice and Cwald — you both expressed that you haven’t had strong confirmations of the truthfulness of the gospel. I don’t fault you for this at all, in fact I admire you for going forward as best you can with some faith it is true. I wasn’t willing to do that. Do you think you would have the doubts you feel about the church if you’d had such powerful spiritual experiences that you believe are undeniable confirmations the church is true?

[Anonymous]

I have decided that I can no longer ask the question “is the Church TRUE” or “does the LDS Church contain the fullness of the Gospel”. I know that we have been programmed since birth or since our conversion to ask these questions. But that doesn’t mean that we HAVE to or SHOULD ask those questions. We can reframe our questions and as a result our experience in the LDS faith in a way that strengthens us, allows us to grow and become more Christlike – which is the very reason for the Gospel. So I am now trying to ask a different question. I have reframed not only the question but as a result hopefully my entire experience as a Mormon.

The question I am seeking to answer for myself now is – what teachings contained in the LDS faith resonate with me as a unique individual child of God with a unique spirit, personality, needs, and life experiences? In other words, what aspects of the LDS Church are true FOR ME. What aspects will help me become a more loving, honest, charitable father, son, brother, and person in general. Some aspects simply DO NOT. Therefore, I readily discard them – not in a negative, critical way but by focusing soley on those aspects of the Gospel that DO help me in my journey here on this earth. Hopefully in doing this I remain open that some day the spirit will teach me what I need to know about those “disgarded” aspects of history, doctrine, practice or policy so that they can become a part of my testimony or tool box for growth. But I am okay if that never occurs in this life and if certain things simply remain outside of my testimony in this life.

While some leaders and members of the Church may be critical of this approach, I believe that is because they only know one approach – one type of question to ask. Reframing the questions or their experience in the Church is foreign and even threatening. I personally KNOW that the Lord accepts this approach for me. My challenge is to remain (or become) humble and open to the Spirit. I have left behind the “structured” aspects of the Church in which all the answers, all the things that I should do, wear, eat and drink on a daily basis are provided through a coorelated church manual. The idea that all the answers are contained in this nice, neat package provided by the church simply did not and does not work for me. Not in a rebellious way but it does not work given the type of unique individual the Lord created me to be. Too much in that package actually detracts from me becoming who I need to become. The Lord did not create cookie-cutter children and as a result is okay if some of us need different approaches in our journey here on this earth.

However, I know that the structure and certainty provided through the Church is a wonderful form of support and guidace for MOST active members of the Church. I in no way criticize that. It simply does not work for me to just in essence “bow my head and say yes”. If I had to I would have to leave this Church. This is my spiritual philosophy as someone who is committed to continuing my journey in life as a member of the LDS Church. It means I am not in the majority at Church. It means I will probably never be a leader in my ward (thank heavens), but I hope it means that I will someday be able to tell my Heavenly Parents that I did my very best while here on this earth.

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