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Yeah, t – that’s a doozy. :wtf: If I had to single out and generalize why the church can be bad it would be something like – the church as an organization often behaves like any other organization primarily interested in self preservation while claiming it’s divinely inspired and meant for the individual. cwald wrote:If I was asked this question, I would simply reply because I see the church as Orwellian. Please go read 1984, or Animal Farm, and come back and then we’ll talk.
Couldn’t suppress a chuckle here.
I think it’s a partial fit though. For a start I DON’T think GAs have it in for ordinary members.
We do revise our history, use odd language and it’s easy to feel like that overworked horse. Some ARE more equal than others.
I second Cwald’s suggestion that members should read these. Although a knowledge of Soviet history is useful, the books have wider application in modern politics. Also check out The Iron Heel by Jack London.
How is the church bad? +* Can resemble pyramid scheme?
* Correlation, clothing
* Hasn’t dealt fully with racist past. The issues of women and gays ongoing.
But I see a lot of good in it too.While the church seems money obsessed, it helps the poor, unemployed, addicted etc which is a great public servicee.
Quote:“why does it bother me so much? They’re not killing babies, they’re TRYING to be good people and most of the time they are. So, I’ve been trying to assess my motives for being critical of the church. How would you all answer?
They are trying to be good people and they are doing what they feel is right for them and what they feel God wants them to do. I know this and yet, like you, I have many negative and angry thoughts about the church. I can tell you why I’m angry and find it easy to criticize. I feel damaged by many teachings of the church but even more so by how the teachings have been taught. I also feel that the LDS view of God has been toxic to me. Toxic is a strong word and I know it may seem ridiculous to many that the church could ever be toxic. For me it has been. So as I’m working through this spiritual mess I have a ton of intense feelings most of which are negative. This is why I’m angry at the church even though the church is not necessarily all bad. My hope is that some day I’ll be at peace with it all and I won’t have such intense, angry emotions. That’s my answer fwiw
SamBee wrote:cwald wrote:If I was asked this question, I would simply reply because I see the church as Orwellian. Please go read 1984, or Animal Farm, and come back and then we’ll talk.
Couldn’t suppress a chuckle here.
I think it’s a partial fit though. For a start I DON’T think GAs have it in for ordinary members.
We do revise our history, use odd language and it’s easy to feel like that overworked horse. Some ARE more equal than others.
I second Cwald’s suggestion that members should read these. Although a knowledge of Soviet history is useful, the books have wider application in modern politics. Also check out The Iron Heel by Jack London.
Well, I would love to discuss and compare the similarities of the Corporate LDS Institution and Orwellian 1984 and Animal Farm, but I feel like I’m on a short leash, and I doubt very much the moderating team would appreciate the discussion.
When you say the LDS view of God is toxic, Haven, what are you thinking of specifically? Do tedious meetings count as being bad? They are capable of causing pain. :angel: cwald, you’ll have to PM me your Animal Farm comparison… I’ve got an AF quote buried somewhere in my sig.
To be serious, sometimes people can get so caught up in the mindset of exclusive access to absolute truth that they become judgmental and intolerant. That same mindset usually closes people’s minds to other perspectives. This isn’t unique to the LDS church but the institution itself is black and white thinking on steroids.
nibbler wrote:Do tedious meetings count as being bad? They are capable of causing pain.
:angel: cwald, you’ll have to PM me your Animal Farm comparison… I’ve got an AF quote buried somewhere in my sig.
Have PM’d CW and you’re welcome to discuss privately too.
I also sent you a PM, cwald. Quote:When you say the LDS view of God is toxic, Haven, what are you thinking of specifically?
Just to make it very clear, I understand that the church’s view of God isn’t toxic for most people and I think it was a combination of subtle and not so subtle teachings and me taking seriously what was told to me. Somebody else might have felt completely different. But for me I took everything to heart and my relationship with the church, and more importantly with God has always been based on fear.
When I was investigating the church I was told that those who reject the church/Gospel are rejected by God in the next life. Even though I hadn’t received a spiritual testimony of the church I was baptized because I believed what I had been told. So from the beginning I had a fear of God and losing my salvation. I was a student at BYU at the time. We were taught often that God will hold us accountable for our sins of omission as well as other sins. I learned that God is a God of order and that order must be followed. In more subtle ways I learned that God is racist and for some reason puts women in a lower station than men. He is more concerned with outward performances, ordinances and policies than with people. Even though I was told God loves everyone, the other teaching far outnumbered and outweighed the God loves everyone teachings. Why would I ever trust a god like this? The reason I don’t leave the church now is out of fear for my salvation. I still fear that god. It’s been terribly difficult to change my views about God because of this.
SamBee wrote:nibbler wrote:Do tedious meetings count as being bad? They are capable of causing pain.
:angel: Huge issue for me. when they day comes they stop allowing us to use mobile devices to the ease the pain, I’ll be really disturbed. I know people grow from the talks etcetera, but 30 years of it gets very old, particularly as personal responsibilities pile up. There are times I wish we had Toastmasters on site so people could learn there from the experts.
I really don’t want to get into bashing the Church so I’ll stick with echoing SD’s comment about I have changed. Except I haven’t changed that much really, I’ve stopped constraining the inner me. Sorry for the late thread bump, but this issue is still on my mind a lot, and some recent conversations here have been of the same spirit. Regarding SD’s “I’m the one that changed” approach, that is definitely true. The church, I believe is bad for me right now. The conversation about stage 4 Mormons started by DBMormon explained this very well: a church that wants you to stay in a very well-defined and often arbitrary safe-harbor is very much a growth-stunter for someone growing out of a stage 3 paradigm. Though I’m still working on this, I mostly walk out of church with anger or exhaustion.
Regarding how the church is bad in general, like, for the entire world? That’s a hard case to make, if one can be made at all. I agree with the 1984 comparison. I thought this when I first went through my transition. Whether the church is run by men who intentionally hide the truth and try to manipulate/mind control it’s members, or is run by men who accidentally/incidentally hide the truth and “manipulate” people with good intentions and thoughts of saving families, the result is largely the same. The fact is they do spy on people a la 1984 with the Strengthening the Members Committee, and they have hidden the truth with the intention of preserving the religion. Though I don’t believe it’s malicious at all. They believe the religion is the best thing for the world and they preserve it and promote it. So is this really a bad thing? It depends on how you define bad. If it’s outcomes you want (ie moral members, happy members, good people, dedicated disciples, helping the poor) then the church is probably good. If you believe an organization that believes it is organized by God himself should behave with the utmost integrity and run itself in a fashion that respects the dignity of its members, well, maybe not so good.
It’s a really tough one for me. I often play the thought experiment of asking what would happen if the church ceased to exist? We would probably scatter to different organizations and religions, some conservative, some liberal. Yes, many people have had their lives saved by being converted to our church. But I’m not convinced another church couldn’t do the same for them. The vacuum left behind would likely be filled by other mostly good organizations. At this point, I’m just not convinced that any net gain is had by promoting good, measurable outcomes under false pretenses.
Also this: Quote:When I was investigating the church I was told that those who reject the church/Gospel are rejected by God in the next life. Even though I hadn’t received a spiritual testimony of the church I was baptized because I believed what I had been told. So from the beginning I had a fear of God and losing my salvation. I was a student at BYU at the time. We were taught often that God will hold us accountable for our sins of omission as well as other sins. I learned that God is a God of order and that order must be followed. In more subtle ways I learned that God is racist and for some reason puts women in a lower station than men. He is more concerned with outward performances, ordinances and policies than with people. Even though I was told God loves everyone, the other teaching far outnumbered and outweighed the God loves everyone teachings. Why would I ever trust a god like this? The reason I don’t leave the church now is out of fear for my salvation. I still fear that god. It’s been terribly difficult to change my views about God because of this.
I wonder for every TBM who bares their testimony of the blessings they’ve gained from being in the church, how many sit silently each month with this kind of anxiety in their hearts. This was definitely true for me as an adolescent. As I got older, I think I knew in my heart that this kind of God wasn’t really up there, but any time I let go of the iron rod, I would feel like I was just trying to justify my sins by creating a God who doesn’t care if I wonder off a bit.
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