Why?

[Anonymous]

I like Heber’s response to SD’s post as well. Hilarious. Ok, I just got a decent response to my letter and am glad I responded how I did now. It opened the way for me to be more open with him as to where my husband and I are at, at this time. See what you think?

Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2011 1:08 AM

Subject: Thanks for your response

Bridget,

I may have shared this with you before. When I became inactive in going to church because I was bitter about what was going on between my first wife and me, I was angry at the church and said that I would never set foot back in church again.

The interesting things about it all was this. I thought about going to another church, but I never felt that I could be associated with another church, no matter how bitter I was at the LDS church. I did not believe that any other church had the authority from God to act on His behalf.

I never had any dreams, visions or voices that told me The Church was true, Joseph Smith was a true prophet and the Book of Mormon was true scripture. I had to work all that out for myself (even though I never went on a mission) to help me with these issues.

I know that there are many good people in the world and God will bless everyone for the good that they do in this life.

I also know that greater blessings can be ours through covenants we make in the temple. Of course all that I believe is based on faith. However, I have also come to this conclusion. We can be the happiest person (meaning at peace with our selves) in the world by living the principles of the gospel.

We all have our agency, which God has given us, to choose for ourselves what we want to do while in this life. God does not interfere with our agency, and he will bless us for all the good that we do.

Take care and we send you our love,

your brother

My reply back to him this morning:

Dear …..,

One of the things I have always liked about the lds church is that they taught we could get personal revelation. The church and our dad always taught us that it was healthy to question; that a church that could not stand up to investigation was built on a weak foundation. I loved leaders like David O McKay, Hugh B. Brown, LeGrand Richards, and Paul H. Dunn. Dad had alot of Joseph F. Smith books, of answers to gospel questions. It gave me confidence to know that asking questions was a good thing and that if something was truth, it had nothing to be afraid of.

I know that many of the teachings in the lds church are good teachings. There are many opportunities to serve and grow in the lds church as well. When I left on my mission at 21, I believed the church was true and relied alot on dad’s testimony. But, my testimony had never really been challenged before. While in the Language Training Center in Provo Utah I had to get up at 5 am, and learn the discussions in German all day and go to bed at 10 pm. I was exhausted and felt under alot of pressure. It was there that I realized I had never really prayed about whether Joseph Smith was a true prophet and decided that I really needed to get my own witness of him before I could go out in the world and teach others about his story. So, I sincerely prayed and asked God if JS was a true prophet. I never got an answer or good feeling of any kind. Nevertheless, I decided to continue on and believed the answer would come eventually as I taught the gospel.

My mission was extremely hard in Austria. I had some very difficult companions, the intense schedule was very hard on my health, as well adjusting to a new culture. It was 89% Catholic, and we tracted 80 hours a week door to door with little success. I was pretty miserable most of the time. This is when I realized I really had to get a testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel, JS, and the church other wise I did NOT want to be doing this for 2 years of my life. I never got a testimony of the church or JS, but I did feel that the law of eternal progression was from God. My health really deteriorated while on my mission and I became very asthmatic. One of my companions belittled me day and night and was very creul to me. Another companion hit on me sexually and scared the living daylights out of me. Then another companion and I were brutally attacked by a drunk at night on the street. A peeping tom got into our room another night. Alot of stuff happened I have never shared with you. I came off my mission, drained, depressed, and loosing alot of my faith in God.

Anyway, I still wanted to believe and continued to pray. I wanted to find a husband and love. This is when I met my husband. He was a good friend and I felt God wanted me to marry him. So, I did. I wanted a family and the happily ever after ending. Well, you and I both know that life is not that way, but a growing experience to develop character. I guess you and I are real characters by now. Anyway, you know that when you get married (especially as quick as I did -3 months) you have no idea what baggage each person brings to the relationship. I got the mother in law from hell and had no idea that about all the other baggage my husband had. But, then I was pregnant with my first child and felt stuck.

My husband joined the church on an intellectual testimony because it was a rational theology, but the spiritual witness that Moroni promised in the Book of Mormon never came for Chuck. For a long time he relied on the testimony of Paul H. Dunn, whom he really respected and liked. But, when it came out that he had fabricated many of his spiritual experiences Chuck knew he could no longer rely on anyone elses testimony. That if Paul Dunn could fabricate spiritual experiences, how could he know if JS didn’t fabricate his spiritual experiences. This is when my husband decided that he could no longer go to the lds church until he got a personal affirmation from God. During this time, I continued to go to church by myself but cried alot, asking God why he had not given a good man like my husband a testimony. This is when I heard a clear voice in my head tell me 3 times, “Why don’t you go visit that 7th Day Adventist church down the street.”

I told my husband about it and we decided to follow that prompting so we started attending this 7th Day Adventist church in Davenport, Iowa. I met with the pastor of that church several times. The things he gave me to read answered some important questions I had. You see I had been doing all the right things in my lds church, (paying tithing, going to the temple, fasting, reading scriptures, praying. etc) but none of the blessings seemed to be coming. In fact everything had gotten worse. My kids were in trouble and my husband did not get his raise, the car and washer broke down, and now he left the church. Where we all the blasted blessings they kept preaching about from the pulpit. Then I came across some anti-Mormon stuff from the Tanners that quoted out of church history and Journal of Discourses. For the first time I thought that my church might be false.

This 7th Day Adventist pastor handed me a little book called “The 5 Day Plan to Know God.” As I was reading, it talked about how the Jews were waiting for their Messiah to come save them from all their trials. When he came and told them he came to save them from their sins, not their problems, they were ticked off. A light bulb went off in me and I realized I was like those early Jews; waiting for God to save me from all my problems. Suddenly I realized I had been living the gospel for the wrong reasons. I knew immediately that the only thing I should be concerned about is being saved from my sins and that is why Jesus died for me. When my husband joined the lds church, the missionaries assumed he had the milk of the gospel (faith in Jesus Christ), but he didn’t.

Sometimes in the lds church we concentrate so much on the meat we neglect the milk of the gospel. Other churches mostly have the milk so it is often highly concentrated there. We left the lds church for two years and investigated the 7th Day Adventist church. We met with this wonderful pastor every week for a year to get lessons. We learned a lot but did not feel we should join. We decided to meet with a man in the lds church who had a master’s degree in church history to discuss all the things that bothered us from the lds church history books and journal of discourses. I had never prayed so hard to know if we should return to the lds church. I cried and cried for a while thinking I had been betrayed by the lds church. I felt like a woman who had found out her husband had cheated on her or misrepresented himself.

During that time I asked the Lord about the 7th Day Adventist church, Ellen G. White and other churches. Our daughter had joined the Baptist church recently with her new husband and my daughter in law was Lutheran. The Lord spoke to me and said the following: ” I work through all churches and they are all my people.”

Dear brother, I think you know my husband and I well enough by now that we are honest people, who work hard, pay our debts, are concerned citizens and are truth seekers. My husband has fasted and prayed for many days at a time over the past 30 years to get a spiriutal testimony of the church. He never got one and had mostly negative experiences with the power of the Priesthood and the temple. The temple ceremony was strange and unspiritual to us. My husband’s first experience in the temple felt like a KluKluxKlan meeting, especially with all the death oaths. I never felt comfortable with sitting naked under a sheet and having women touch me. It was all too bizarre for us and often very unspiritual by how some of the members acted there.

My husband asked a general authority about this once and the GA told him that some people never get answers and he does not know why. When I was at BYU, a man who had been a minister of another church for many years said that when he first prayed about the Book of Mormon he felt the spirit tell him NOT to join the church. It was only later he learned that the time was not ready for him to join the lds church. My husband no longer believes the lds church is true and is basically agnostic. He does like being with good Christian people and I hope that will bring him to Christ some day at least. I am attaching our story of how we came to the Nazerene church for you. I hope it will help you understand where we are at and what we are going through right now.

I was a bit offended that you should ask me if I believed in God in your first letter to me. Like only those in the church could believe in God? Everyone does not get the same answers for their lives just because they are in the church. Sometimes, I think God tells us to take other paths to learn various truths that we can’t learn in the lds church. Just know that I do believe in God and in personal revelation and this is what I follow…not what people tell me.

Thanks so much for caring and for letting me share with you where my husband and I are at.

Love Bridget

[Anonymous]

I enjoyed reading this encapsulated history of your experience with the Church Bridget. Thanks. I hope he’ll see that your issues are far deeper and more complex than the simplistic set of questions he asked earlier. The fact that the Church promises a witness, and people never get one is real and valid in my view. Naysayers will blame it on something else, like unwillingness to live the commandments, but you both joined the Church and ran the gauntlet of things we are supposed to do in the Church.

I also think that it’s a lesson to everyone who wishes to reach out to less actives. His first email was sort of accusing and disrespectful, as you pointed out. You responded with a business-like answer that didn’t get to the heart of any issues; it was a general, controlled response (and rightly so).

Then, his next message was more kind, personal and gentle…and then, you responded in kind, and opened up to him. Just an observation. Love wins…

I think when working with people who are having faith issues, the best thing you can do is to just leave the door open, the fire burning, and the table set…too often, members just slam the door on the person in the faith crisis.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

. The fact that the Church promises a witness, and people never get one is real and valid in my view. Naysayers will blame it on something else, like unwillingness to live the commandments, but you both joined the Church and ran the gauntlet of things we are supposed to do in the Church.

I also think that it’s a lesson to everyone who wishes to reach out to less actives.

I think when working with people who are having faith issues, the best thing you can do is to just leave the door open, the fire burning, and the table set…too often, members just slam the door on the person in the faith crisis.

You really get it SD!! One of the most painful things for my husband and I have been when people treat you like you must have sinned somehow, or are not humble enough, or want too big of an answer….Or when they say…”Oh you have a testimony, you just don’t know it.” I understand that many members cannot comprehend anyone not getting an answer since Moroni promises you one. Or all the blessings you will get from going to the temple, or paying your tithing. In the church people only talk about the success stories and those with different stories like ours usually keep their mouths shut. I really wonder how many members if asked by a church leader if they have had negative experiences in the temple, etc. in the church, there would be.

The church is like a doctor who only reports his successes, and gets mad if any of his patients report that it did not work for them. Sometimes I feel like in the story of the “Emperor has No clothes.” The members of the community wanted to make the King feel good by saying the right things…and finally someone had the courage (a child) to say, “The emperor has no clothes on.” If we can’t be honest with where we are at, then no communication or progress can happen. We in this group understand and know how to treat those who doubt and question.

[Anonymous]

And for me, that’s why it’s so hard to accept the gaping holes in our processes, leadership and even doctrine etcetera. We trump up what a great organization this is all the time, which raises expectations considerably. But then, when the behavior of the Church falls short of its grand claims, it leads to disillusionment. The STayLDS article addresses thsi somewhat, but I don’t find the answers satisfying, lumping the Church in with corporations, founding fathers who made mistakes etcetera — none of whom claim one true religon, a perfect organization and a Divine head. But that is another story.

[Anonymous]

SilentDawning wrote:

none of whom claim one true religon, a perfect organization and a Divine head.

I’m not sure that middle one is claimed. I’ve never heard that…although I think many people deduce such…because if its led by God, and its God’s church…wouldn’t it be perfectly organized? But actually, its not…and I don’t think they claim that. Especially since they are changing the organization all the time.

SilentDawning wrote:

when the behavior of the Church falls short of its grand claims, it leads to disillusionment.

I agree with this part, SD…although I have done lots to check my expectations of what I think was the church’s claims vs what the grand claims actually are. I think that was part of the reason God pushed me on my journey…after a lifetime of service…I needed to step back and check my bearings and my internal assumptions a bit. Sometimes its more about me and my expectations that weren’t quite right, moreso than what the church was actually claiming.

doug wrote:

Quote:

bridget_night wrote:1. They have geninune love and concern for the family member.

2. My doubts challenge their own faith and undermines it and they cannot handle having their own faith rocked.

3. Testifying to me or others wins them ‘points’ with God and makes them feel better about themselves.

4. It gives them a sense of power to feel their are wielding gods power to rebuke others.

That sounds about right. Some others might be

5. They are doing what they’ve been told they should do.

6. They do it in order to satisfy their conscience.

Good thoughts.

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

SilentDawning wrote:

none of whom claim one true religon, a perfect organization and a Divine head.

I’m not sure that middle one is claimed. I’ve never heard that…

Oh come on Heber. How many times have you heard someone say, “the church is perfect, but the people aren’t.” If not, you are lucky, because i heard it pretty well every time the church or a church leader messed up. For 40 years I have been hearing this, and if the church leadership didn’t believe it or don’t want the membership to believe it, they should say so, and they haven’t.

You know what I think. I think we have that backwards. I think for the most part, “the Mormon people are “true,” but the church organization isn’t.”

[Anonymous]

bridget_night wrote:

The church is like a doctor who only reports his successes, and gets mad if any of his patients report that it did not work for them. Sometimes I feel like in the story of the “Emperor has No clothes.” The members of the community wanted to make the King feel good by saying the right things…and finally someone had the courage (a child) to say, “The emperor has no clothes on.” If we can’t be honest with where we are at, then no communication or progress can happen. We in this group understand and know how to treat those who doubt and question.

BN, did you listen to Tom’s ME essay this summer where he used the analogy of Tangled? His was to me, by far the best DAMU essay maybe ever. I went to church for the first time in a long time last week, and i used this analogy with my kids. I like to think the church is like a parent. We protect our kids, give them rules, do everything we can to keep them safe and prepare them for the world. Then, they graduate from HS and we send them on their way to find their pathway in the world, and we hope they will leave this planet better than when they found it. SOMETIMES the church is like Mother Goffel, and just can’t let go and give their kid any kind of trust or freedom. Sometimes the church fears for our safety so much that they want us kids to live in the basement forever, protected and safe from the world. They think they are doing what is right. And in some cases, they probably are. But in so many cases, in my case and probably yours, it stops our growth and hinders our spiritual journey, it does us more harm than good, and when we try to explain this to the parents or/and (the church,) it hurts their feelings and they get mad.

Anyway.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

How many times have you heard someone say, “the church is perfect, but the people aren’t.”

Hmm…I’m gonna do some digging and studying to see if the Church claims that, or if the members are just claiming that…which are two totally different things. Absolutely I’ve heard it, and I argue with people about it…I usually say there is a difference between the gospel and the church…and most of the time they look puzzled, meaning they’ve never thought about this stuff deeply before…they just regurgitate things without really knowing what they say. But does the Church really claim to be perfect? Someone help me find citations for that…I’m not sure I believe the Church claims their organization is perfect.

cwald wrote:

You know what I think. I think we have that backwards. I think for the most part, “the Mormon people are “true,” but the church organization isn’t.”

And that is where you and I completely 100% agree!!

[Anonymous]

Heber13 wrote:

cwald wrote:

How many times have you heard someone say, “the church is perfect, but the people aren’t.”

Sure Heber, I doubt there is any official statement, but that doesn’t mean we don’t believe it and teach it. It would fit in there with all those “unwritten order of things” type of commandments and doctrines.

It would be similar to the belief by the church members that the apostles are visiting with Jesus, face to face, on a regular basis. there is no official statement saying so, but many people believe it, and the church has done or said nothing to discourage the belief.

So if one can sin by omission, than I say this would certainly be a doctrine by omission?

IMO …… Got to remember which board I’m posting on and be polite. 🙂

Yeah Heber – I like your comment about calling people out when they make that quote. So many of our tribe don’t care and don’t want to have to think about stuff like this. “All is well in Zion.” Damn, some days, some days I would love to be able to go back into that kind of mindset.

[Anonymous]

Doctrine by omission. I kinda like that, cwald! Well said.

cwald wrote:

I doubt there is any official statement, but that doesn’t mean we don’t believe it and teach it. It would fit in there with all those “unwritten order of things” type of commandments and doctrines.

…those fit into the unwritten order of things…that I don’t believe in.

That’s what I’ve learned a lot the past 3 years…things that are said in church aren’t things I MUST believe in, even if I let others the right to worship how, where, or what they may.

I can do my own study, and get my own confirmations on what the church really is teaching or what the gospel supports, and I’m happy to debate it with others, with facts…not anecdotes or traditions of our fathers or authoritative claims.

I throw homosexuality into that ring. I heard in Sunday School last week an ignorant statement made on homosexuality. And I completely disagree with the guy who made the comment that the church teaches that, or there is any doctrine to support it. But most people in church think that way. It doesn’t make it doctrine. It doesn’t make it “my church”, and I can choose to dismiss it.

No, the church is far from perfect…which means plenty of opportunity for change!

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