Will homosexuals ever marry in the temple?

[Anonymous]

Okay.

What it comes down to is this – is sex between married adults wrong? Currently the church says that it’s okay if it’s between one man and one woman, as long as they are married. Before married – sin. After marriage – okay.

So, if god made some men who are attracted to women, and they search for love, decide to get married, and make certain commitments, and then have sex – okay. In my logical brain, which understand genetics and chemistry and how “attraction” works, it only makes sense that if god made some men who were attracted to men, and some women who were attracted to women, and they search for love, decide to get married and make certain commitments, and then have sex – it should be okay.??????

How is that sin? Yes, I understand that we like to believe that prophets have all the answers and speak with and for god, and that the “church” says it is, but that doesn’t make it so. The “church” have said a lot of things throughout it’s history where they have been wrong. Maybe they are wrong again on this issue as well.

[Anonymous]

Sort of off topic, but your comments made me think:

I don’t really think of sex as sinful, but we are advised not to participate in it outside of a controlled environment because of the problems it can cause. For example, when most of these commandments were made, there was no birth control. Messing with a person’s life by bringing them into this world without at least making an effort at a stable family is not good and usually will have lifelong implications for the child. Even with birth control, that is still a problem. But what I see as a bigger problem is the casual attitudes towards sex that are pervasive among young adults today. Women are often seen by guys as objects to get off on, rather than to love and respect. That cannot be cool with God. Now on the other hand, sex as a sign of love and developing closeness and adhesion in a committed relationship is different. It does not feel sinful, and I never felt any guilt nor loss of any spirit when I did that myself prior to marriage.

Also, I think marriage as we practice today is largely a man-made convention. Do we really think God is sitting there with a clipboard and he cares that some clerk at the courthouse in your hometown signs a certificate? In the middle of nowhere, and certainly in ancient days, there would be nobody to perform what we consider a real marriage. And yet if two people got together, made a commitment and started a family, would god consider that a sin? Similarly I have a friend at work that has been with the same woman for 18 years and helped raise her children. They never got a marriage certificate, but he has been a husband as well as any of us. The fact that marriage is carried out in countless ways across the globe means God is really only looking for a commitment and not a certain document.

So how to tie this back in… I guess I might say that a committed couple is already married in the eyes of God and the marriage here on earth is just a formality that we have created for our own benefit.

[Anonymous]

Brown wrote:

Also, I think marriage as we practice today is largely a man-made convention. Do we really think God is sitting there with a clipboard and he cares that some clerk at the courthouse in your hometown signs a certificate? In the middle of nowhere, and certainly in ancient days, there would be nobody to perform what we consider a real marriage. And yet if two people got together, made a commitment and started a family, would god consider that a sin? Similarly I have a friend at work that has been with the same woman for 18 years and helped raise her children. They never got a marriage certificate, but he has been a husband as well as any of us. The fact that marriage is carried out in countless ways across the globe means God is really only looking for a commitment and not a certain document.

This raises an issue that has been a big burr under my saddle for years, namely, who actually has the authority to marry other people? I think it’s absurd to assign this authority arbitrarily to a government, but then I don’t recognize any church to have this authority either. Granted there are practical legal reasons for a government to want to keep track of marriages just as with other legal contracts (for inheritance, child custody and so forth.) But that could be accomplished by recording a contract stipulating the relationship between the individuals involved.

From an ecclesiastical point of view, that’s a totally subjective matter … it’s just a ritual that people can have or not have as they see fit. The only “authority” required is the will of the people involved, that they want to consider themselves married. I would argue that the authority of the LDS organization ended with the dissolution of the church in 1890 (or thereabouts) but that’s a thorny subject for another thread.

[Anonymous]

Brown, Limhah —- I agree with you on these points. No argument from this corner.

I really don’t think it’s the governments business, and I don’t think “sex” is a sin necessary either. I’m not sure that I even think “the church” has a right to define what kind of “sex” is okay and what kind of “sex” is sinful. The intent that one goes into a sexual relationship can be sinful, IMO, either in or out of marriage. But sex as a sin?

That is why I would be considered to be sympathetic to the gay agenda. If they are truly going into it looking for a committed and loving relationship, why do we, as a people and government, and we, as a church, think we have the right to deny them that? I think sex is/can be very spiritual/godly and it certainly is basic drive of life. Either God or mother nature MADE US THIS WAY.

Limhah, I might also add that even though I think the way the church practiced polygamy under BY did a tremendous amount of damage and spiritual harm to many many women, especially young women, I really don’t think it was right for the government to make laws that define what is or isn’t “marriage.” I don’t think polygamy is okay though. Polyandry? Sure – but not polygamy. I don’t think so. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.

I have no tolerance for these groups that are marrying underage girls, and I have no tolerance for traditional arranged marriages — but if there is a group of folks who truly can live a spiritual and loving kind of polyandry – it’s really none of my business.

[Anonymous]

Limhah wrote:

This raises an issue that has been a big burr under my saddle for years, namely, who actually has the authority to marry other people?

The government does. It is their prerogative. If you’re asking where they get their authority from, it’s probably derived in some convoluted way from the interstate commerce clause in the constitution, and thence from us, the people. I think the problem here is that as a society, we tend to conflate the ideas of civil marriage and ‘religious marriage’. In many countries, the two are separate, and I think we would be best served by following their example: civil ‘unions’ for whoever wants it (and meets some basic requirements, of course) and, in addition, religious marriage ceremonies for those so inclined through their own religious organization. But I doubt that will ever happen because the civil marriage contract has religious implications for so many, and that’s hard to let go of.

[Anonymous]

cwald wrote:

The intent that one goes into a sexual relationship can be sinful, IMO, either in or out of marriage.

Brown wrote:

Now on the other hand, sex as a sign of love and developing closeness and adhesion in a committed relationship is different. It does not feel sinful

I find this concept intriguing. As in so many other gospel topics, it appears to be the intent of the heart rather than the actual act that matters to God. (Incidentally, in priesthood meeting there was some discussion of giving tithing grudgingly results in TR but misses spiritual blessings. Matthew 6:1-4 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.” Was interesting because TR is sometimes used synonymously with spiritual blessings and I enjoyed the distinction.) Like Cwald, I can think of examples where sex within marriage can be sinful. The term unrighteous sexual dominion comes to mind. I understand that it is very very difficult to try a rape case between married individuals.

As far as the church and government is concerned, these things may be true but how do you administer, manage, process, and record them. The box on the form just says “Married- Yes or No.” (or as in the tithing example “Tithing- full, part, or none”)

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