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Rix wrote:
when you answer for “health reasons,” it is inconsistent today with what we know about nutrition.
IOW, if we try to say “we believe it is important to be healthy, and this is to help us…,” while eating a whopper with cheese and a big gulp diet coke…while saying a glass of red wine with dinner is bad, we often get a cock-eyed response.
I hear ya, man! I totally and 100% agree.
This is why I think that it should be taught as the 4 No-No’s are where the church leaders have drawn the line on living this commandment, but that is only the starting place. The real blessings come from living the spirit of the law, avoiding the Whopper to often, but trying to live healthy. “Health Resons” is insufficient IMO.
I’m hungry…I’m going to lunch. Whopper sounds good.
Heber13 wrote:Rix wrote:when you answer for “health reasons,” it is inconsistent today with what we know about nutrition.
IOW, if we try to say “we believe it is important to be healthy, and this is to help us…,” while eating a whopper with cheese and a big gulp diet coke…while saying a glass of red wine with dinner is bad, we often get a cock-eyed response.
I hear ya, man! I totally and 100% agree.
This is why I think that it should be taught as the 4 No-No’s are where the church leaders have drawn the line on living this commandment, but that is only the starting place. The real blessings come from living the spirit of the law, avoiding the Whopper to often, but trying to live healthy. “Health Resons” is insufficient IMO.
I’m hungry…I’m going to lunch. Whopper sounds good.
Buy me one too…with cheese!
😆 swimordie wrote:just me wrote:Swim, do you really see pain meds in the same realm as tobacco usage?
Definitely with mood altering prescription meds, not so much pain meds. Tobacco is a type of anti-anxiety drug for many people. Pain meds would be more in line with alcohol, imo.
btw, many of these prescription meds are much more addictive than any of the “don’ts” in the WoW. Someone needs to do a thread on why some things get updated with new “guidelines” and other things don’t in the church. Prescription drugs would be number one on the list, in my mind. fwiw, I have no problem with anyone taking any drug whether legal or illegal in any safe, responsible way. Lest you think that I have some “problem” with prescription drugs.
I was just curious.
Putting WoW into the original context, JS was seeking a way to become enlightened, to have greater access to spiritual experiences. These prohibitions were supposed to free the body to receive the spirit. So, it’s more like what I was saying about other groups that abstain for spiritual reasons (e.g. meditations, etc.) than it is a health code. It falls a bit short as a health code, although Mormons are also committed (more or less) to healthy lifestyles. I think people miss the real point when we talk about it as a health code, though. Maybe that’s why Mormons are so good at finding our lost car keys . . . Heber13 wrote:
Someone needs to think of a good argument why it should be changed, otherwise, it has become a cultural thing and is not a bad thing, so why fix something that ain’t broke.
I think it may be broken, looking at the per capita use of anti-depressants, anti-anxiety, pain-killing prescription drugs in Utah.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,660200893,00.html Obviously, there is a shifting of mood-altering self-medication from alcohol to prescription meds. imo
swimordie, fwiw, I really don’t like that argument – since I really don’t like stigmatizing use of prescribed medicine that helps people function better. I have NO problem with the use of anti-depressants in Utah, especially among a population that doesn’t self-medicate with alcohol and tobacco. If those substances were included in the studies about medicine use, the numbers would be VERY different – and I’ll take prescribed medication over self-medication any day of the week and six times on Sunday. Why in the world is taking prescribed medication from a doctor a bad thing? Sorry, but I really don’t like that argument.
swimordie wrote:Obviously, there is a shifting of mood-altering self-medication from alcohol to prescription meds. imo
Well, I certainly see your point, and Hawkgrrl made a great point about being unchallenged from spiritual “in-tune-ness” – as I know people on anti-depressants say it helps them, but they greatly miss being sensitive to the spirit on meds.
However, the difference with alcohol and meds is that meds allow a depressed/bi-polar person to regain control to function again in society. Alcohol just numbs the brain and leads to irresponsible escapes accompanied by dangerous behavior and often fits of anger. The former is a good, controlled outcome (good for the health of the individual), the latter is unhealthy.
I have seen evidence meds have literally saved lives. That can’t be against the word of wisdom to start telling those people to just have faith to get over their problems without professional help. I still think abstinence from alcohol is a good thing.
(looks like Ray just beat me to the submit button…but I think agrees).
I’m not insinuating or advocating for anything. I don’t think ANY drug use should be stigmatized, legal or illegal. That’s what causes all the problems in the first place. I’m saying that there’s a gross disconnect between the “spirit” of the law and the “letter” of the law, at least as is currently constituted. You are all aware that in California and many countries in the world, marijuana is a prescription drug. But, I know in CA you can’t get a temple recommend if you’re using pot under the direction of a physician.
Quote:I know in CA you can’t get a temple recommend if you’re using pot under the direction of a physician.
That certainly is an issue, especially since the prohibition as worded in the CHI is “illegal substances” – if I remember correctly. Even if the wording is slightly different, that is the meaning. If it ain’t illegal because it’s prescribed, it ain’t against the WofW.
We have medical marijuana here in MT also. The problem is, I suppose, that even though marijuana is legal by state law…it is still illegal by federal law as far as I know.
I’m a coffee drinker … It is funny how some simple, almost silly things have become so knee-jerk defend to the death … avoid at all costs, worst sin tenants of the church. Our salvation rides on the avoidance of things like:
WofW
a cross
civil marriages (recent MAD thread)
other religions
Even after 7 years, my TBM wife will NOT allow a coffee maker in the house. She has softened a bit and does make me my favorite frozen chocolate mocha cheese cake (with freeze dried, decaffinated coffee, which is of course, still a sin) for my birthday. “Since “your already going to hell” she tells me as she serves it up.
The irony is when you get asking the hard questions and a fairly standard response might be “I don’t concern myself with things that don’t pertain to my salvation, just follow Christ”
Old-Timer wrote:Why in the world is taking prescribed medication from a doctor a bad thing? Sorry, but I really don’t like that argument.
I had forgotten about this thread…wanted to reply to this. Of course, if the “process” of being honest with the doc, then taking the meds as prescribed, and for the right purpose…it is just fine. The problem is, there is MUCH deception in getting the “prescribed meds” by many people. Particularly in regards to opiate pain meds and benzos (valium, Xanax, etc.).
Many folks learn after being Rx’d these meds appropriately that they really like them, and they learn what to say to the doc to get more. We call that “doc shopping.” Many of these patients (here in Utah) are active LDS and probably answer “yes’ to the WoW questions. I think the point here is that certainly the spirit of the law is being broken in these cases…
As far as normal Rx meds like for hypertension, diabetes, etc…that’s not even an issue. And the common anti-depressant meds generally aren’t debilitating like the others above, so I personally wouldn’t consider them a problem (with the WoW), but we could open a whole new thread as it relates to how we should strive to be mentally and emotionally healthy WITHOUT an external aid….
But that’s another thread.
My wife and I did a “Social Services Mission” for about a year. It was the Church’s version of the 12 step program. We held weekly meetings in our local Jail and one in our Stake Center. It might surprise you to know how many members are abusing subscription drugs. In all cases that I was personally involved with, they started with legitimate uses and escalated. If I were to rate the most devastating I experienced:
1. Meth addicts
2. Presecription addicts
3. Alcohol addicts
A long time friend, whose wife struggled with this finally lost his dear wife to this affliction just in the last year or so. I believe she was about 38. They were always faithful in callings and held Temple recommends, few knew of the seriousness of her addiction.
IMO, we are to follow the WOW b/c it is a “Set of Rules” (well part of) we need to follow for entering the temple (a very sacred place) in a worthy manner. It is having respect for “The Lords” house .. Which I completely respect. Will it change? I honestly believe the conditions might become more strict-Unless for some reason science (with excellent reason) plays a part in changing the world with regards to alcohol, drugs, coffee, tea etc. as we know it, and if the smartest choice .. for the Church would be to follow the world/country and change (or get honest continued revelation about it)-W/E it is they do. Unfortunately it is brought about in such the wrong spirits!
WOW issues hit me so so close to home. My many experiences with Dh and the In-laws (not to mention some other members) regarding the WOW have left me somewhat embarrassed and shocked. My stories are too personal and long to mention BUT .. The judging and finger pointing, when it comes to WOW issues is just so immature at times..Who can follow the “Rules” best .. Who can we shake our fingers at for not being as “Worthy” as us .. Who can we distance ourselves from because “They” don’t believe in our “Rules”. I am the only member (I guess you can call me that) in my immediate family … Some hurtful things have been said and constantly come up again and again about anyone who happens to not follow the WOW to a T .. LDS, inactive or family that have NO IDEA what heck WOW even is … Aren’t there more important things to focus on .. Or at least more “important” (serious) things to judge people about?
The WOW really is such a beautiful concept. Is the spirit of the WOW failing .. Is it ruined? Who is to blame .. members, leaders? Is the negative attitude of Right vs. Wrong, Us vs. Them, just too intertwined in our culture now that the positive spirit of it will never surface?
LaLaLove, Good points. Somewhere along the line a simple good idea, not by way of commandment, has turned into the 1st tenet of salvation, with a required shunning of violators limited from stoning only because of current civil laws.
It has turned into this knee-jerk rejection/repulsion syndrome that would likely make for a great psychology masters thesis.
As Tevye would say “On the other hand”, if the Jews have to be cursed (umm I mean blessed) with the food laws of Moses’ time, why should the Mormons get off easy?
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