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Lala and Tim, Tim I love your last comment there. When looking at the laws we live by it is much less stringent and hard then other religion’s sacrifices that they must make.
Lala you are absoulutely correct that the spirit has been lost. The spirit of WoW is to prohibit any bad thing from entering the body. American LDS are probably the worst rule breakers. We take red meats, sugar, and other harmful substances into our body on a constant basis. I myself am hugely to blame on this. So why should I get so upset if someone has a smoke? There is a stigma attached to other things is the simple answer, yet this does not make it right whatsoever. We all need to take a retrospective look at how unhealthy we are with our bodies. How many people can say they have worked out or got a moderate form of excercise over the last 3 to 4 days?
New here…I’m tbm dw working my way through life and dh’s disaffection. For some reason, probaby because of how I’ve been taught in a very strict tbm family, this is the topic (WOW) that is now bothering me the most. DH has a high calling in the church, but because of his historical research now interprets the WOW, and almost everything else lds, very differently. He thinks it is ok to have a drink or a few every so often- maybe once a month or so. He also thinks it’s ok to chew tobacco. He sees no harm in it, and that it has not changed him as a person. On the contrary, he feels liberated and happier. I on the other hand have become paranoid and have anxiety every time he does it or am anxious wondering what he’s doing or other things it can lead to. Part of that could be because he kept it from me and it was 6 weeks before I discovered that he had started to have a drink. We’ve agreed to keep it out of the house, but sometimes it seems to slip back in unawares… So my question is- how bad is it really to have an occassional drink and chew after the stress of the day or a hard day’s work? How do I get over my anxiety? How do I let go of my desire for him not to do it? He says he enjoys it and will not give it up. How do you get over the fact that your spouse’s now chosen lifestyle is one that you were taught to detest and stay away from at all costs? I do not want it to be a part of my life, but now I have to accept it. Even the smell or sight of it causes anxiety and repulsion in me because of how I was taught.
One of the things I loved about us was our common belief and now it is not there.
(we both have an alcoholic grandparent that have passed away- an argument that I’ve tried with him, but he says he’s responsible and not going in that direction)
I appreciate all your thoughtful posts and discussions. You all will never know how much they help…
Rix wrote:Old-Timer wrote:Why in the world is taking prescribed medication from a doctor a bad thing? Sorry, but I really don’t like that argument.
I had forgotten about this thread…wanted to reply to this. Of course, if the “process” of being honest with the doc, then taking the meds as prescribed, and for the right purpose…it is just fine. The problem is, there is MUCH deception in getting the “prescribed meds” by many people. Particularly in regards to opiate pain meds and benzos (valium, Xanax, etc.).
Many folks learn after being Rx’d these meds appropriately that they really like them, and they learn what to say to the doc to get more. We call that “doc shopping.” Many of these patients (here in Utah) are active LDS and probably answer “yes’ to the WoW questions. I think the point here is that certainly the spirit of the law is being broken in these cases…
Perfectly said Rix; lots and lots of people break the “spirit” of the law with prescription meds. If one pain pill will pretty much fix your headache, but you know 2 will completely kill it and get you high in the process, then taking 2 isn’t in compliance with the spirit of the law is it? If you start taking more pain pills for the buzz, that isn’t any different than drinking or smoking pot for the buzz, is it? The number of pain pill related deaths in Utah was over 300 last year–one of the highest in the country. I think part of the reason Utah has a higher level of pain pill abuse than most states is because of the WoW. It is visually sinful to drink or smoke, but swallowing a white pill that doctors prescribe seems harmless–there is much less of a stigma associated with this.
roma, you are in a place that is very close to home for my TBM DW and myself. She would normally not participate in a forum. But your post reminded me so much of our situation … I have asked her if she would like to respond …
please check back
Roma, Consider checking out Faces East (@
http://www.faceseast.org ), which is a forum for believing spouses of disaffected members. You may find additional support there that will help you.Roma, sorry, i made a big mess of this … edit with comments mixed in
The following is from my wife. We have been married 28 years .. the last 7 of which I have been inactive. DW says that if you ever need to talk one-on-one … she is available.
I just walked into the office at home and my husband had me read your post and asked if I would respond because you and I are in the same boat.
My husband is a recovering alcoholic/addict for about 20 years. We were married in the temple and went down the straight laced Mormon path. He started reading the history of the church and many, many,many other books on the subject of history, of Joseph Smith and those that were close to him (i.e. B H Roberts, Heber C Kimball, the Pratt bros etc.)
He decided it wasn’t bad to drink coffee. When we were on vacation he would order a drink. All of which brought back all of the anxiety and paranoia as well as the embarrassment and fear. I had no one to talk to about it.
Anyway, to the point–I figured that if I love my husband and he loves me we needed to work this out. I figured he should have some respect for me and what I wanted too. We have talked about it from time to time. (fight is more like it)
He doesn’t drink because of the alcoholism and respect for the reality of what it alone can do to our marriage, me, himself, and our children. He does drink coffee.
He keeps asking me to get him a coffee pot. The smell of coffee does make me nauseous so I haven’t. He figures it could be embarrassing for me when people from church come over so he’s ok buying it at 7-11.
I honestly think some boundaries should be set for the 2 of you. Talk to him and ask if some of the concerns you have could be considered and see if the 2 of you can come up with some kind of boundaries.
Do you have children at home? What are you willing to put up with? Has your husband drank before? If so, was he an alcoholic or what kind of drinker is he?
Is he still in a position at church? Does anyone else know about all this or are you keeping this between the 2 of you? Have you taken it to the bishop? Have you gotten any church people involved?
I sat down with my husband and told him LOUDLY that it is stupid for someone like him (alcoholic) to start drinking because he is liberated and can. It can only ruin our marriage., I think he gets that.
The tobacco hasn’t been a problem in our marriage for a lot of years. (I have a brother that chewed, and got cancer of the mouth and throat. He still struggles with that) So that is gone for us. common sense won out there. Thank goodness!
Roma’s original comments with Kandy’s notes mixed in:
New here…I’m tbm dw working my way through life and dh’s disaffection. For some reason, probaby because of how I’ve been taught in a very strict tbm family, this is the topic (WOW) that is now bothering me the most. DH has a high calling in the church, but because of his historical research now interprets the WOW, and almost everything else lds, very differently. He thinks it is ok to have a drink or a few every so often- maybe once a month or so. He also thinks it’s ok to chew tobacco. He sees no harm in it, and that it has not changed him as a person. On the contrary, he feels liberated and happier. I on the other hand have become paranoid and have anxiety every time he does it or am anxious wondering what he’s doing or other things it can lead to. Part of that could be because he kept it from me and it was 6 weeks
it is a huge feeling of betrayal/ I thought we were on the same page and were raising our children this way and we were going on mission after mission when the kids were gone etc. huge yeah i know!before I discovered that he had started to have a drink. We’ve agreed to keep it out of the house, but sometimes it seems to slip back in unawares…
So my question is- how bad is it really to have an occassional drink
If he’s an alcoholic extremly badand chew
we all know what that can do! enough said.after the stress of the day or a hard day’s work? How do I get over my anxiety?
Pray a lot and really listen to the Lord when he speaks! This is the tricky part. It has been very hard for me to understand and know how to handle myself.How do I let go of my desire for him not to do it?
I don’t think it ever goes away, but love him a lot more!He says he enjoys it and will not give it up.
He will find one day it is only destructive and no good can come from it. I know some day can be a long time in coming.How do you get over the fact that your spouse’s now chosen lifestyle is one that you were taught to detest and stay away from at all costs?
You don’;t. but you do try to see things as he now views them and try to work from there only with help from God.I do not want it to be a part of my life, but now I have to accept it.
Not without boundaries you don’t. It is not only his marriage it is your as well! You need to come up with boundaries that the 2 of you can live with.Even the smell or sight of it causes anxiety and repulsion in me because of how I was taught.
Me too! Still does. Never will go away for me because i was taught in a very strict LDS home also. but this isn’t your mothers marriage or anyone elses. It is YOURS. You now have a lot to think about that they probably didn’t. Then learning to deal is another new game your family memebers probably don’t have to deal with either.One of the things I loved about us was our common belief and now it is not there.
I do understand that one. I think however that if the 2 of you talked–you would find more commonality than you think and his heart hasn’t totally left the things he believes and/orbelieved!(we both have an alcoholic grandparent that have passed away- an argument that I’ve tried with him, but he says he’s responsible
that is what my husband said too and we have seen it rear it’s ugly a few times (a few too many in my opinion) in our marriage, he can’t rationally say something like that.and not going in that direction)
i am so sorry that you are going thru this. it is a very difficult thing. I will pray for you and your husband if that is ok? I wish for your experience to be short lived in that he would come to reality quickly.I appreciate all your thoughtful posts and discussions. You all will never know how much they help…
roma wrote:So my question is- how bad is it really to have an occassional drink and chew after the stress of the day or a hard day’s work? How do I get over my anxiety? How do I let go of my desire for him not to do it?
Roma-
I went through this exact thing, EXACT, with my DW. If you want me to share my experiences I will. It may seem shocking to some.
I don’t know if you saw it, but Ray posted an article that is absolutely the most amazing experience of a wife having to deal with a confused husband (in reality, it doesn’t matter if he’s confused or not). Here’s the link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/fashion/02love.html?_r=2 And we had a great discussion about it here:
http://forum.staylds.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=721 If you read this and want to know how my DW and I handled it, I’ll share.
Thanks so much for all your responses and support. I actually have been on faceseast and found great support there, too, in the past few months. I don’t want to get into too much detail here about my dh, but would love to talk to you, Kandy. Is there a way to send a private email? Thank you for sharing your story and experience. I did read that article and was impressed by the wife’s strength and ability to let go and let time work. My dh is not that extreme- he still enjoys the social aspects of church and his calling although his beliefs have changed. He believes this change in him will only make our marriage and life better. I don’t agree yet.
My dh is not an alcoholic. He even bought non-alcoholic beer to drink at home to make me feel better. In the past several months he’s only drank about once every month or two and not a lot. He argues that many people enjoy alcohol in moderation in the world with no negative effect. He leads a very healthy lifestyle with the way he eats and runs. He even gave up a diet soda when it started to give him headaches- so I hope to believe that he would treat alcohol the same and do it responsibly. Which he says he does.
So my question- is alcohol or tobacco all that bad in moderation? Is anything really all that bad in moderation? Like it was mentioned a few posts back so many people “follow” the word of wisdom but overeat, or live a very unhealthy lifestyle that may be worse than having an occasional drink. So am I overreacting to my husband? How do you change a paradigm that is so ingrained in you?
oh, and yes swimordie I would like to here your story… roma wrote:oh, and yes swimordie I would like to here your story…
Okay… so, obviously I would be the one like your DH. When I was struggling to understand for myself how to handle church while gaining emotional health, I had decided to just do church my way. Get rid of the shame and lack of approval that I always felt at church and in my super-TBM family.
I discovered that it wasn’t necessarily the church or my family that was making me feel that. It was me. Allowing those feelings to rule my emotions and destroy my sense of self-worth.
As I was discovering an internal life, free of shame and self-loathing, I also tapped into something else. I smoked and drank in high school. Never did drugs, but I guess I was expressing my individuality, not so much rebelling. I began to feel those same urges of wanting to break away from those codependent bonds and be an individual again.
The problem for me was that I was going through alot of this without talking to my DW about it. I was going slow in talking to her, but my internal processes were happening much faster. Finally, it broke. I ordered a drink when out with my DW. I hadn’t said anything to her yet, but I just couldn’t figure out how. So, I just did it. I was learning. That was a very tough lesson.
My DW had literally never been with another individual who was drinking. Ever. She lived such a cocooned life and only hung out with good lds friends in high school, went to byu, married me. To say this was a shock to her system would be the biggest understatement ever. We spent the rest of the night crying together, talking, expressing some deep, deep feelings, emotions, beliefs. We finally exhausted ourselves by 4 in the morning and had come to a place where we accepted each other enough to keep talking.
Over the next several weeks, we talked and talked and talked. My DW realized that it was her own codependency that made her feel so strongly. As I was gaining emotional health recovering from codependency, she saw the changes in me. I was more loving, patient, kind, and attentive to her and my boys. I was not as self-deprecating. I was actually showing signs of self-esteem. Something she hadn’t seen in years.
As we continued to recover from our codependency, she was discovering that who I was, the person with growing self-esteem, confidence, and love, was the person she always loved. She didn’t love me because we were married in the temple, had kids together, went to church together, did fun stuff together. She loved me for me. No matter what.
And, this came with me loving myself. Believing that I was a good person. I know that sounds silly, but most of my life, I actually believed I was never good enough. And in the black/white paradigm, not good enough equated to not good. I began to embrace the goodness in me, ignore the self-talk that was negative and I discovered, over time, that it was in me. It was in me to know what was right. It was in me to understand what I believed. And it was in me to find the strength to be who I was, without apology or seeking approval from anyone.
I also started to smoke occasionally. I loved smoking in high school. It’s stupid and pointless, but it was a unique fun part of my and my friends high school experience. Again, my DW was not understanding. She slowly got to the point that she could see how my occasional drinking was meaningless, and she even clips coupons when some of my liquor is on sale now. But the smoking was different.
She fell back into emotionally abusive behavior when I would smoke and could not understand in any way why I would want to do it. After months of this cycle, she finally realized that it didn’t affect her and it didn’t make me a different person, husband or father. And, when she stopped caring, I stopped smoking. Not entirely, I will still smoke at work on occasion, especially when on an active project. And, frankly, I see that over time, those nostalgic feelings of individuality will continue to go away as I spend more and more time with emotional health and, I imagine, I’ll stop smoking entirely. (ok, I’ll probably still have a cigar on the golf course)
It’s my journey, and my DW has now seen enough of it that I believe she accepts that I need to go through what I need to go through and that it will work itself out.
The key, in my mind, is emotional health. If I wasn’t actively seeking emotional health and started to drink, that could have become an addiction. And if my DW hadn’t discovered her own need for recovering from codependency, she may have left me.
It’s not the drinking, smoking, p)rn that are the problems. It’s the internal life that’s happening when one engages in this. Anything done in moderation, in my mind, means that the individual is emotionally healthy enough to know what’s right, where the line is, and how to manage one’s feelings appropriately.
In the end, it’s not the activity that forms the individual. Individuals are made inside. It’s the willingness to be honest with oneself, accept oneself, and embrace the good that, I believe, exists in all of us. That good is the individual.
I know how hard it is, but some here grabbed on to something I said in another post: accept rather than expect. I know we’re taught in church to not “accept” “sin”. But, there’s a bigger principle at play, in my mind. It’s our job to love. It’s the Savior’s job to redeem.
I think there is a gender difference regarding the WOW. I think men are wired to hunt, gather and explore. If you tell a man “you’re not supposed to do that,” he will likely resent it and plow ahead and see for himself. It’s an important part of the discovery process in men.
Rix started this thread by sharing the fact that he would refuse green tea in Japan while on his mission in the late 70’s, but now apparently missionaries can have the tea.
In the early 70’s, while on my mission in New England, we missed many opportunities to get to know people by simply refusing a cup of coffee. Think about this: A nice person invites you in from their doorstep, and immediately asks, “can I make you a cup of coffee?” You immediately say “no thank you.” Then sit down and look at one another.
If they had said, “would you like a glass of water” that’s quite a different signal. That’s stating “I’m gracious, but don’t intend to sit long.”
But a cup of coffee. That was a game changer. That was often the ballgame.
In New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, etc., the offer of a cup of coffee, just like tea in Japan, was an invitation to break bread. To sit down and really talk. This was actually a cultural cue. We were missing the chance to have many good conversations, authentic repartee, it was a conversation stopper to say “no thank you.” But if we had shared some coffee- and yes, pie, cookies, and other baked goods, if we hadn’t been so half-baked in our conceits, we would have made a lot of headway. We would have gotten to know an authentic person. Instead, we were inauthentic in our response.
(The issues that couples are having, is understandable, poignant and it looks like they are being handled well. I’d say, “ladies” you might appreciate that some of your men are more interested in being a “man” (more man), than Morman.)
swimordie wrote:I know how hard it is, but some here grabbed on to something I said in another post: accept rather than expect. I know we’re taught in church to not “accept” “sin”. But, there’s a bigger principle at play, in my mind. It’s our job to love. It’s the Savior’s job to redeem.
Brilliant! Thanks for taking the time to share, Swim!
Oh, (editing now…) I wanted to mention that it’s so interesting how our stories are similar. I remember my last “using” day — Christmas, 99. Like many, I had my spans of clean time, but tended to pop a few extra pills on holidays…. Between Christmas activities, I was reading “Believing Christ” by Stephen Robinson. For some reason, a few of his stories turned the light bulb on for me. I WAS OKAY! It was grace, not works that gave us salvation (today I see all that as metaphor, but it really hit home!).
I haven’t had a craving since then…. Funny how that works!
timpanogos wrote:I appreciate all your thoughtful posts and discussions. You all will never know how much they help…
Okay, finally got a chance to read these posts. Thank you Kandy and Roma for your courage to share what you have. My time is a bit short now (gotta go to the Utes opening fotball game, you know!), so I’m going to be a bit direct.
I HOPE both of you have been involved in a codependency or alanon group. If not, I highly recommend it.
Your energy towards your DH’s intake of substances will create a tension that in fact may create a desire for “him” to use more.Codependents rarely recognize this, and I find it particularly problematic in the church because there is so much emphasis on “stewardship.” IOW, there is a push for us to fix and be fixed…especially in marriages. On the surface it seems like love, but it is much deeper. Many books on Codependency are available,and could be helpful for you. Now, please don’t get me wrong. I am not saying their use is “your” problem. I am not even saying their use is wrong! I don’t know enough about either situation to make that conclusion…but your posts are classic codependency. Where it is amplified is when the church says that it is not only a physical/psychological disease…it is also a “sin.” Frankly, I think the church should replace some meetings with good alanon support groups! Really!
I don’t usually get this direct, but I have my reasons. My first wife was just like you two. I was a pain pill addict trying to get clean. The guilt that I felt already was bad enough, but when amplified by her…let’s just say I was not in a good enough place to react appropriately. Pills were too easy to get. For this (and other) reasons, we divorced, and the recovery really happened after that. I became a CAC (certified addictions counselor) and worked with family groups with these exact issues. Great work, but the pay is poor!
You two seem to really love your husbands. One of the most loving things you can do is let them go on their walkabout. Accept them as they are. Let God do the healing, not you. They will love you more if you do. And you will get to where you love yourselves more too.
Good luck…and…GO UTES!
roma; This is Chad … Sorry, been a bit busy … Check your PM’s on this site … I’ll drop you Kandy’s email address there.
She would love to talk.
Thanks for sharing your story swimordie. It is always comforting to see others going through the same experience and how they deal with it. It seems like you guys have a healthy relationship and way of working through this. How long has it been? How did your wife come to where she is now? Did she get help? I have been looking for a therapist for a while and just today set up a first appointment. If you can believe it, the therapist grew up Mormon, but is not practicing now. I am excited to get help with the way I think. It is enlightening to hear that I am codependent, Rix. I’ll look more into that. It will be nice to put a label on what I am feeling and finding solutions to dealing with it. I’ve just found that over the past 6 months, I don’t seem to be able to do it myself- even with long discussions with my dh. Swimordie- does your wife know about faceseast? Sorry for detracting from the main WOW topic…
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