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roma wrote:
It seems like you guys have a healthy relationship and way of working through this. How long has it been? How did your wife come to where she is now? Did she get help?
This journey started a little over a year ago for us. Yes, she got help. She read the most amazing book ever, “Codependent No More”, she talked to other women that she knew well who had gone through similar situations, and she saw a counselor. This is going to sound crazy (or not) but she needed to see a counselor to help her with her codependency with her parents. That ended up being a much bigger trial than what she went through with me. Mostly because I was giving love and acceptance to her through her “recovery” and they were emotionally abusing her. So, it was really, really difficult for her.
I will say that I was the cause of that whole situation. Not her codependency on her parents but her being forced to deal with it. Not because I pushed her, rather when her parents found out that I had left the church, well… let’s just say alot of something hit the fan. In a BIG way.
roma wrote:Swimordie- does your wife know about faceseast?
She’s aware but has no interest. It’s a whole other story and I probably talked about it in some post in the past but the short version is that, despite her TBM upbringing and her parents insane reaction around my disclosure, she’s never been a spiritual or religious person. She’s a caregiver and has never felt the prodding of perfection that so many of us in the church have.
I guess what I’m trying to say is that she has always done church her own way, no apologies. She never had a problem turning down a calling if she didn’t want to do it, turning down talks, and I’ve never heard her bear her testimony in a public setting. Ironically, this used to bother me in my TBM days.
Now, she still does church her own way, no apologies. And I follow her wherever she goes, because she’s the greatest thing that could ever happen to anyone. Lucky me!!!
Just a side note, I’m sure the Word of Wisdom thing depends on your mission. I served in Japan recently and was not allowed to drink green tea. It was also a mission rule that we were forbidden from drinking ANY caffeinated soft drinks, just so we wouldn’t have to try and explain the Word of Wisdom as it relates to caffeine. I’d really like to see this standard changed. If you really read the scripture…it is broad to intepretation (hot drinks, meat, strong drinks). I can understand the leaders clarifying what these are. But the clarifications in society back over a century ago are not so critical to us now, and this is my problem. TBMs hold fast to the importance of coffee, tea, nicotine, and alcohol (and drugs) and I really think coffee and tea are really not a big deal. Is there fear that changing it would throw off many TBMs trust in prior revelation (which is right, the prior revelation or the current one??)? As new things face us as saints, why not have a living prophet receive new revelation to interpret it for us in our day?
I say they start teaching members more about how to have faith and accept new revelation, and have new church leaders be bold enough to say it…”All things in moderation…but tea is not big on our list of concerned substances…obesity is.” (or whatever).
Could it be that the Lord would give us new revelation on the WoW if the church leaders were not so hung up on the prior revelation is infallible?
Quote:Could it be that the Lord would give us new revelation on the WoW if the church leaders were not so hung up on the prior revelation is infallible?
Switch “leaders” to “members” and I would agree totally. I think a lot of things could change if we, the people, were better able to accept change. As it is, it’s damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
Hawkgrrrl, or anyone else who wants to comment… What is the deal with Tea?
Drugs…yep…stupid to take unlawfully. Alcohol…ok … some people are more prone to its effects than others, but clearly can lead to bad habits Coffee… hmmm … I guess the caffeine does get addictive and it is a stimulant, so avoiding these things is a good idea, but really…is it THAT bad? Tea
:So these WoW rules become a list of “We don’t wear pink socks on Tuesdays” rule that we must just live as church members regardless of what they actually mean (which is low on my list of priorities these days).
Otherwise…what does tea have to do with the price in China?
Maybe someday this will change…missionaries certainly can drink it now in some customs, right?
I don’t profess to be a major tea expert. Herbal tea is not prohibited. Tea with caffeine is actual similar to coffee in caffeine content. It also contains tannins. There’s much debate about whether tannins are a big deal or not (some say they lead to anemia by reducing iron absorption). As to the caffeine content, an LDS friend of mine thought Chai tea was herbal and started drinking one each morning. When he found out it was not herbal tea he experienced significant withdrawals. Many in the CoC take the prohibition against “hot drinks” at face value and simply drink them once they have cooled (rather than avoiding them entirely). There have been quite a few claims about the health benefits of tea, particularly green tea. Claims include weight loss, theoretical decreased risk of cancer, decreased risk of Type II diabetes, etc. I can find and post some links to scientific articles if you are interested. Tea tends to have less caffeine than coffee, but it does still contain a significant amount of caffeine. The TBM arguments I have heard against tea and coffee indicate that the contraindication is due to more than just caffeine, including other chemical components and the temperature of the water, but also because “the prophet said so”.
On my mission in Ukraine we were allowed to drink herbal tea, but not black or green tea. Tea drinking is a big deal in Ukraine, almost as big as vodka.
I served in Russia and had a similar experience as Mister Curie. We drank rose-hip tea, mint tea, and pretty much any other herbal teas. This was never seen as a problem. Black tea, white tea, and green tea are all made from the same tea leaves, but seeped differently. They were specifically prohibited in Russia. Whether or not it is the caffeine or not I don’t know. The whole argument to me is so lame! If green tea has the health benefits proclaimed then to me it would not fall under “taking something harmful into the body” as described on the church’s website. Science gets it wrong sometimes, but the debate over green tea just feels really silly to me.
I tend to agree with Eu about green tea. But as I said I’m no tea expert. I have been a drinker of herbal tea my whole life, and I have had other teas when I was not observing the WoW. Having had all kinds, I can only say that my fave is still camomile (herbal) when hot. But iced tea coolers with lemon or orange flavor are awesome too. Still – it’s not a major issue to not drink it either. It’s just tea. I’m not British after all. 
Being a tea expert (in my own mind) and somewhat knowledgeable about herbal medicine (I make some of my own), there is something important to consider. In the English language, the word “tea” refers to a lot of different things. That makes it confusing for us Mormons. “Tea” is a generic term in English for any herbal extraction using hot water. Herbal teas are not normally considered prohibited by the WofW in our modern interpretation. Those are extractions made from plants other than the leaves of the “Camellia Sinensis” bush. Camomile is a common herb made into a tea. That is fine based on the contemporary WofW interpretation.
“Tea” also refers to a shrub-like plant species called Camellia Sinensis (that Latin name). China is famous for growing this plant and cultivating it for consumption as a beverage. Camellia Sinensis extracted in hot water is the “tea” they mean in the modern interpretation of the Word of Wisdom. There are many varieties of preparing this plant — green, white, black, oolong, puerh, etc. Those are all different styles of harvesting and preparing the Camellia Sinensis plant for consumption as a “tea” beverage.
Thanks everyone. I have learned something about teas…that’s great. I like learning. I like tea. I like Postum too and wish that company didn’t go out of business (I can’t find it in stores anymore 
In general, I tend to think getting into so much detail of green tea vs some other tea vs hot tea or iced tea … at some point, the WoW idea gets lost if one starts to try to get so detailed, IMO. The idea is, use wisdom in what you take in.
But really…is it so important to NEVER take one sip of tea? Never take a sip of coffee? NEVER have a glass of wine?
There is nothing magical about any of these…it is all about moderation. And it is about self-discipline and commitment.
I wish there wasn’t so much of a stigma put on it in the church. Its no big deal, IMO. I don’t think there used to be, based on accounts in church history. Somehow over time, they’ve drawn a line in the sand about that one, and you just have to just go along with the crowd on obeying it, just because. I think that is where it makes me roll my eyes
🙄 – doing things to follow the leaders just because is not fulfilling to me spiritually. I like real meaning behind things. That is my ENFJ personality coming out.
Heber13 wrote:In general, I tend to think getting into so much detail of green tea vs some other tea vs hot tea or iced tea … at some point, the WoW idea gets lost if one starts to try to get so detailed, IMO. The idea is, use wisdom in what you take in.
But really…is it so important to NEVER take one sip of tea? Never take a sip of coffee? NEVER have a glass of wine?
There is nothing magical about any of these…it is all about moderation. And it is about self-discipline and commitment.
I wish there wasn’t so much of a stigma put on it in the church. Its no big deal, IMO. I don’t think there used to be, based on accounts in church history. Somehow over time, they’ve drawn a line in the sand about that one, and you just have to just go along with the crowd on obeying it, just because. I think that is where it makes me roll my eyes
🙄 – doing things to follow the leaders just because is not fulfilling to me spiritually. I like real meaning behind things. That is my ENFJ personality coming out.
I like all this Heber13. I think there is wisdom here. No it’s not so important, and yes it is about using wisdom in what you take in.I did a bit more research on the tea issue and the health benefits. From a Mormon perspective, Valoel’s right, the teas from the Camilla Sinensis plant are what define a “tea.” “Herbal infusion” is a more appropriate name for Herbal teas as they are not, in fact, teas. The Camilla Sinensis plant is what provides the health benefits in green tea. But green tea has the most health benefits (compared with black, oolong, etc.) as it is not allowed to ferment in the steeping process. I read up on the health benefits, and quite frankly, I think the jury is still out. There are studies which indicate it has many benefits especially since it breaches blood-brain barrier. This is in part due to the caffeine it would seem (Rix feel free to correct me if I’m way off base here). There are a lot of antioxidants in green tea which is helpful, but these are also available in blueberry juice and from other, more natural sources. Studies on Asians, who drink lots of green tea, are very positive, but they also have diets high in fish, rice, and other healthy foods.
It would also seem that most doctors won’t recommend green tea as a medicine, since the studies are not quite convincing enough. There are certainly drawbacks to the caffeine as it is a psychoactive stimulant. There is not as much caffeine in a cup of green tea as there is in coffee. Some claim there are benefits for memory, reducing risk of cancer, heart disease, etc.
My personal opinion is that green tea may have some health benefits, but also has some drawbacks. It is likely healthier (even in large quantities) than large quantities of candy, energy drinks, chocolate, meat, sugar cereal, cake, donuts, and fast food which are not against the word of wisdom. I try to eat healthy by using things in moderation and generally eating home cooked meals that fit general wisdom for a healthy diet. My wife has celiac’s disease so we eat even healthier than we would otherwise. I eat healthy because I like to hike, play sports, and do other fun stuff, not because the WoW says so.
Once again, the debate over green tea is just plain silly!
Tea has been through human “testing” on billions of people for thousands of years. I think we more or less know the effects by now. It’s just a beverage. It isn’t going to make you live forever. It also isn’t going to kill you. The results will be somewhere in between Valoel wrote:Tea has been through human “testing” on billions of people for thousands of years. I think we more or less know the effects by now. It’s just a beverage. It isn’t going to make you live forever. It also isn’t going to kill you. The results will be somewhere in between
Yes you’re right. I was simply referring to the exact health benefits that are often claimed with green tea. There is an extensive list of specific things, and it would seem that the jury is still out on at least some of them.What I want to know is how did it happen that they took one phrase about hot drinks to mean so many things, but missed the two paragraphs about not eating meat unless it was freezing and food was scarce? I mean really! I would gladly give up my chicken for a glass of wine
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