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Konvert Kid wrote:
They now sell Coke at the Temple. It is decaf, but apparently that makes it OK. Just had to add that to this conversation.
Maybe they have never read Skinny Bitch. That book made me quit eating dairy and meat for about a month. Thank God I hate soda and diet soda .. or that book would have made it impossible for me to drink it again. That book is hardcore!I came across another article today (I’m really not seeking these out, just stumble across them). So while we’re on this topic, I find this interesting:
Live Science website (
http://www.livescience.com/health/top_10_self_destruction.html ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.livescience.com/health/top_10_self_destruction.html …again, this list is worded to do these things if you
wantto lead to self-destruction.
Quote:
#10 on the list was to sacrifice SLEEP…
#5 on the list: ALCOHOL Besides alcoholism of course, too much booze causes liver damage, diabetes and is the root cause of nearly 100,000 deaths per year.
#4 is STRESS When you’re chronically stressed, the adrenal glands are forced to work overtime and eventually exhaust themselves, inhibiting the immune system.
#3 is WATCH TV
#2 is SMOKING Tobacco-related illnesses are America’s number two killer, and the most preventable.
and
#1 … EAT JUNK FOOD
[attachment=0]top10_destruction_junkfood.jpg[/attachment]
Many of you have commented how it doesn’t seem right the obese person is “worthy” but the person who drinks alcohol is not.I think this list is interesting that they rank alcohol as not as bad as stress (which church callings provide), watching TV, or most of all eating junk food (which is at every youth activity and ward social event). Smoking isn’t even the #1 thing…its #2 behind bad eating habits.
Perhaps my problem with the WoW as it is required today in the church is that it associates 4 unhealthy habits with a standard of spiritual worthiness, and has no connection to spiritual worthiness on all the other physically unhealthy things we can place in our body or mind that could repel the Spirit of the Lord. How does that make sense? The WoW is great to advise us to eat healthy grains and veggies and avoid meat and eat good…but none of those are worthiness standards.
I think it would be better to have it be a word of wisdom, something you should do if you are wise, something that others may encourage you to avoid (like being obese or addicted to TV), but not something that determines your spiritual worthiness to go to the temple or get baptized.
Cool stuff, Heber!! Love it all! Heber13 makes a great point, one I often think about. Alcohol, coffee, and tea – they are fine for people who are in a normal situation, happy-go-lucky part of life. But when taken under stress, they can quickly turn a bad situation much much worse. While the stimulants in coffee & tea can give mental clarity, they also cause sleeplessness, especially when one is already stressed or depressed and prone to sleeplessness. Alcohol can take a depression and make it completely uncontrollable. And people under stress are more susceptible to wanting to “self-medicate” through these kinds of substances. I suppose I could see a relaxation on decaffeinated coffees or teas, but really, what’s the point – they have an acquired taste. No one likes their first cup of coffee or tea. My MP did allow one sister to drink decaf coffee because she was a recent convert who struggled to give it up.
I think a large part of the “forbidden four” is the ease in which one can verify that they don’t consume a very specific substance. That concept is very clear cut and easy to make a “line in the sand” sort of determination. How would the standard be if a temple question asked “Are you healthy and sober in all that you do while inhabiting your body?” Note: this is worded a lot like the final question about being honest in all your dealings.
How would someone answer that question? How would they be judged by another to determine worthiness?
It’s so much easier to say “Don’t consume these four things and you pass.” The problem with all minimum standards is that they tend to become the new norm. It’s a lot like someone saying they are honest because all their dealings are “legal,” when it is very possible to stay within the letter of civil and criminal law and still be immoral. Moral is a higher standard than legal. Health is a higher standard than abstinence.
Quote:Moral is a higher standard than legal. Health is a higher standard than abstinence.
I agree, valoel. However, I think it’s way too easy to forget that there is a communal need for some reliance on group abstinence / common conduct as the principle base (I teach them correct principles) and let overall health be an individual effort (and they govern themselves). Honestly, I personally like the current way that the WoW is handled – the delineation of very few communal commands (that are quite easy to understand and justify if one wants to do so) and the allowance for individuals to govern themselves in all else. I also like that the whole issue of tea is being de-emphasized in many places and cultures (or that exceptions are being made for the former broad brush).
Frankly, I think the most important discussion is the tendency of local leaders to expand the hedges around the law and start adding things that aren’t forbidden expressly in the original revelation. I also think people should be able to be baptized if they are willing to try to follow the basic restrictions of the Wow, since members aren’t excommunicated for not following them. I don’t think investigators and new members should be held to temple standards in order to become members officially.
Heber13 wrote:I came across another article today (I’m really not seeking these out, just stumble across them).
Perhaps my problem with the WoW as it is required today in the church is that it associates 4 unhealthy habits with a standard of spiritual worthiness, and has no connection to spiritual worthiness on all the other physically unhealthy things we can place in our body or mind that could repel the Spirit of the Lord. How does that make sense? The WoW is great to advise us to eat healthy grains and veggies and avoid meat and eat good…but none of those are worthiness standards.
I think it would be better to have it be a word of wisdom, something you should do if you are wise, something that others may encourage you to avoid (like being obese or addicted to TV), but not something that determines your spiritual worthiness to go to the temple or get baptized.
This is what kills me. Health is (kind of) used as an “Excuse” for the WOW as it is “Used” now. When in reality (imo) it is about obedience to what the leaders say.. in order to be righteous, or enter the Temple AND to “Fit in” with the group. When it comes down to it the obedience to be able to follow the current translation of the WOW (regardless of how YOU yourself interpet it) is what grants you the spritiual worthiness the “Leaders” define .. much less to do with being in your best health to enter the temple. Just my thoughts on it.Heber13 wrote:Perhaps my problem with the WoW as it is required today in the church is that it associates 4 unhealthy habits with a standard of spiritual worthiness, and has no connection to spiritual worthiness on all the other physically unhealthy things we can place in our body or mind that could repel the Spirit of the Lord. How does that make sense? The WoW is great to advise us to eat healthy grains and veggies and avoid meat and eat good…but none of those are worthiness standards.
Heber13, I totally am with you here. This was one of my primary beefs in my disaffection process. Here’s how I view it:1. When the WoW was revealed, science had not yet gotten to the point where it could adequately give reliable information about our health. There was some science indicating that coffee, tea, alcohol, and tobacco weren’t good for people so JS jumped on board.
2. At some point, most likely during Grant’s presidency in the church, and coupled with prohibition, the WoW took on commandment status (though it took a number of years to be really enforced). Having that status, it is now in that form, unchangeable, except by revelation. If it were really just a suggestion I can only assume it would have either been updated to be more restrictive, or loosened.
3. Science is now at a point where it is far more reliable than the WoW to tell us what is good for, and not good for our bodies.
In much of our church culture I find that, despite what I thought in my stage 3-ness, there are many other, more reliable sources of information than LDS prophets. That isn’t to say that all of the advice of our prophets is unreliable, just that in many areas it is clearly unreliable (quakers on moon for example). During my stage 4-ness I wanted one of two things:
1. update the WoW to include ALL the bad stuff (energy drinks, etc. etc.), essentially become more restrictive to indicate the increase in the number of ways you can shoot yourself in the foot (figuratively speaking).
2. update the WoW to remove the silly restrictions which are being countered by scientific data each day (green tea, red wine, etc.).
However, I now simply view it as a starting place. The WoW is canonized, and the forbidden four might as well be. It isn’t going to ever change unless there is revelation.
Plus, there really is no downside to accepting the forbidden four. For me, it’s just not worth making an issue out of it, especially when there are SO many people who truly do need to abstain. Frankly, I”m probably one of them – and I’m deeply grateful that I’ve never had to find out for sure. So many thought-provoking/interesting posts…thanks all for making me think! I think the reason, sometimes, for not changing certain antiquated teachings (blacks/priesthood, WoW specifics, gay rights, etc.) is that there is a bit of egg on the face of the church if you DO change a long accepted teaching. After all, there is the common belief that “God would never allow the Prophet to lead the church astray” concept that gets challenged every time there is a paradigm shift in the church. It’s almost as if somebody at church headquarters is monitoring the scales weighing the pros and cons of a teaching…and when it tips the other way too far, it’s time for a revelation!
(did I say that???)
Rix wrote:It’s almost as if somebody at church headquarters is monitoring the scales weighing the pros and cons of a teaching…and when it tips the other way too far, it’s time for a revelation!
You’re a straight shooter, huh, Rix…you tell it like you mean it.During my stage 4-ness I wanted one of two things:
1. update the WoW to include ALL the bad stuff …
2. update the WoW to remove the silly restrictions …
I sure appreciate everyone sharing your views, it really helps me.
Eu’s points really hit the nail on the head for me…while I have started to let go of this, I think my stage “4-ness” is also showing because when I break out of stage 3 acceptance of literal WoW revelation and power and blessings, and see the flaws in the thinking there is something about the magical 4 no-no’s for worthiness, then I want the WoW to do just what you said, be updated to include all the bad stuff and eliminate all the silly stuff, and
thenit can be true to me again. That is really stage 4 thinking…still wanting the organization to change to make sense as I see it. Instead, I can tell Eu, Valoel, Ray and others have moved beyond that thinking to realize there really is no reason NOT to accept it in its current form … it is a starting place and for organization reasons has become canonized and a standard, but the real growth comes from understanding the spirit of the law and living that principle, in addition to the letter of the law as now required to be taken on faith at face value.
Real growth comes from realizing the organization doesn’t have to change it and make it 100% correct for it to be true. It can be flawed and still be true to me even if I make it something worthwhile for myself. That means I can be honest and not hypocritical, still accept there probably is nothing wrong with a sip of wine, but there are also blessings I can achieve by showing God I have self-control to commit to what is asked of me and avoid being overtaken by addictions in the flesh. I don’t have to be commanded in all things…I can figure out what is also bad for me or what is not, and I don’t have to check in with my bishop on every substance to get his approval…I should be able to know what feels right to me and what I want to live by.
That works for me. Especially since the WoW isn’t really a temptation to me, and never has been. I don’t want to drink and smoke, what I really want is a commandment that makes sense to me spiritually and isn’t just a matter of blind obedience to some traditions of our fathers. This journey is helping me see I can reconcile all those things, and live the commandment with faith it is something really of importance to me, regardless of whether the church ever updates anything.
Heber13 wrote:That is really stage 4 thinking…still wanting the organization to change to make sense as I see it. Instead, I can tell Eu, Valoel, Ray and others have moved beyond that thinking to realize there really is no reason NOT to accept it in its current form … it is a starting place and for organization reasons has become canonized and a standard, but the real growth comes from understanding the spirit of the law and living that principle, in addition to the letter of the law as now required to be taken on faith at face value.
Oh man, isn’t that the truth! Strange place to be – angry with the church/leaders/etc. wondering if it’s all a bunch of BS, while actually WANTING it to be consistent so that you might return to the place where you accepted it, BS or not! The desire for certainty and consistency, and black and white thinking seems to outweigh the importance of true understanding. I know that there were many times where I thought that I would have rather returned to my Stage 3 thinking, accepting the truth blindly, living in ignorance, as long as I was comfortable. And, you know what? Maybe that’s not such a bad place to be after all!
Well, since I’m now deemed the official “straight shooter” 😆 ) , and of course this relates to the “controversial” teachings such as the WoW, blacks and the priesthood, gay marriage, etc.:These “teachings” were given by man; they were given (generally) at a time that it made sense based on the knowledge and cultural norms of the time, assisted by words from books we call “scripture” — also written by man — and they all did the best they could with what they had. I really do give it to them that they usually made decisions after much prayer and contemplation…and believed they received inspiration from God regarding such teachings, generally given by and to stage three folks, which is the majority of members.
AND, I think we spend way too much time and energy trying to make sense of it all! We do so much mental gymnastics justifying things that really don’t make sense today. I’d really like to see the church just focus on teaching love, charity, forgiveness, service, and self-worth (the things that Jesus really taught)…instead of worrying about if green tea should be avoided, or used liberally for health purposes! I think when our leaders put so much effort into teaching about whether everything we do is right or wrong, instead they should teach us to use common sense and seek our own inspiration on how to live. The more we give energy to little specific details about what we do, the less time we have to learn and experience real spiritual growth.
(Sheesh, where’d that come from??? It really started on topic with the WoW, right?!)
The whole WOW is convoluted and mired in tradition not an actual reading of the scripture. Take verse 17 for instance Quote:17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.
Barley? Mild Drinks? There is no way to interpret that other than beer or some other mild alcohol containing brew. Also it says ” also other grain”. Again only brewed drinks are made from grains, or at leas in 1833 they were. So it is obvious Joseph never intended for a total ban on alcohol yet tradition has made it a great evil.
So why do we adhere to a misreading of the doctrine today. Becasue tradition and doctrine have become so intertwined in the church yet both are a measure of your obedience.
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