- This topic is empty.
-
Posts
-
Quote:
So why do we adhere to a misreading of the doctrine today. Becasue tradition and doctrine have become so intertwined in the church yet both are a measure of your obedience.
I disagree that’s why – the reason is because at a point in time, the WoW was “reinterpreted” and then voted into “commandment” status. D&C 89 clearly says “not by way of commandment.” The church deliberately adopted it many many years later.
Hawkgirl wrote:I disagree that’s why – the reason is because at a point in time, the WoW was “reinterpreted” and then voted into “commandment” status. D&C 89 clearly says “not by way of commandment.” The church deliberately adopted it many many years later.
So are you saying that they knew they were changing the original intent of the WOW. If so why?
Here’s one brief history of the Word of Wisdom: http://www.lifeongoldplates.com/2007/09/development-of-word-of-wisdom.html ” class=”bbcode_url”> http://www.lifeongoldplates.com/2007/09/development-of-word-of-wisdom.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Wisdomhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_Wisdom” class=”bbcode_url”> – As recently as 1901, Apostles Brigham Young, Jr. and John Henry Smith argued that the revelation did not prohibit beer.[39] However, LDS Church leaders now teach that consumption of any form of alcohol, including beer, violates the Word of Wisdom.[42][43][44]
– In a pamphlet written in 1930 called The Word of Wisdom, Apostle John A. Widtsoe taught that refined flour was contrary to the Word of Wisdom.[39]
– In 1921, church president Heber J. Grant made adherence to the proscriptions of the Word of Wisdom an absolute requirement for entering the temple.[39]
– Today, adherence to the proscriptions of the Word of Wisdom is required for baptism[45] and for entry into temples of the LDS Church.[46]
– The only official interpretation of “hot drinks” (D&C 89:9) in the Word of Wisdom is the statement made by early Church leaders that the term “hot drinks” means tea and coffee. Members should not use any substance that contains illegal drugs. Nor should members use harmful or habit-forming substances except under the care of a competent physician.[47]
Other sects of the church interpret the WoW differently. For example, the CoC considers the “heat” of the hot drinks to be the issue. They allow their coffee and tea to cool before drinking it. In short, the WoW is subject to interpretation. Only when it was determined that wide-scale adoption (rather than individual adaptation) was preferred did the church attempt to interpret the standard for all.
Very interesting history, HG…thanks! I have some journal entries from my Grandfather who was a bishop in the Copperton area in the early 1900s that are interesting. He would talk of his counselors talking too much in bishopric meeting…he wanted them to get done so they could go smoke their cigars!
😆 If we want the benefits of on-going revelation and an open canon, we need to accept those times when it goes in a different direction than we might prefer. Therefore, I’ll take the change in the WofW in order to maintain on-going change and an open canon – which includes how we interpret the canon.
Old-Timer wrote:If we want the benefits of on-going revelation and an open canon, we need to accept those times when it goes in a different direction than we might prefer.
Therefore, I’ll take the change in the WofW in order to maintain on-going change and an open canon – which includes how we interpret the canon.
I admire that Ray, and think there is importance to faith and accepting revelation even if not what I prefer. I really want to have faith in on-going revelation. Part of religion is believing in something greater than myself…and so I can tell myself to commit to things even if I don’t understand them, with the faith that it will benefit me for doing so, either by understanding it better someday or just benefiting from being meek.However, it seems like revelation should be about something relevant to my life and my spiritual growth, like sacrificing time to home teach and serve other people, or revelation about God’s nature that Christ was real and is living with a resurrected body, or that managing our money and storing food and savings for future protection of our families like the wise virgins to the bride party … those things have significant value to determining the kind of character I need to develop to become more like my Heavenly Father.
WoW seems much more arbitrary and petty, the more I study it. Reading Hawkgrrrl’s materials make it seem like it was just adopted by leaders at some point, and from then on…it has become a standard for worthiness to enter God’s presence or to have the Holy Ghost, or to be worthy to baptize my son. I cannot find scriptures that support such doctrine, nor do I feel inspiration from the Holy Ghost that such is true…it always boils down to just me accepting it on faith as a token of my membership in the church. Is that true religion?
A friend of mine who went through a divorce recently left the church. The comments I heard from people at church were, “Can you believe she is smoking and drinking…I don’t think I can be friends with her anymore.” To me, that is what it has become in the church…a person becomes a pariah because they break the word of wisdom. Now, that is not how the loving bishopric members treat her, but I would guess many others on this forum can share similar types of experiences. That is clearly not consistent with what I would think God would teach His children or what laws govern the heavens. And surely that is the fault of church members who truly don’t get real religion and what it means to love your neighbor or seek out the 1 of the 99.
But my problem is that it seems to be perpetually taught by the church because so much emphasis is placed on complete abstinence of the forbidden four that the entire principle is lost to the modern church, IMO. The church is not teaching it as a word of wisdom, with the greater law being to make sure you love others and your own body as the governing principle.
No, it is taught that it is just an arbitrary line in the sand, and because it has the stamp of approval of a prophet then we must now obey it, regardless of the true meaning, and that obedience is greater than truth.
That is how I see it. I have not been able to study or find any explanations from people that help me see it differently, which saddens me because it seems to lessen my respect for church leadership, and so I put it in the category of “the church is not perfect but I can love it anyway.”
Perhaps you can help me see where my thinking is wrong on this subject, and if I am being too prideful.
I see it more like Rix, who put it nicely:
Rix wrote:I think we spend way too much time and energy trying to make sense of it all! We do so much mental gymnastics justifying things that really don’t make sense today. I’d really like to see the church just focus on teaching love, charity, forgiveness, service, and self-worth (the things that Jesus really taught)…instead of worrying about if green tea should be avoided, or used liberally for health purposes! I think when our leaders put so much effort into teaching about whether everything we do is right or wrong, instead they should teach us to use common sense and seek our own inspiration on how to live. The more we give energy to little specific details about what we do, the less time we have to learn and experience real spiritual growth.
Cadence wrote:Barley? Mild Drinks? There is no way to interpret that other than beer or some other mild alcohol containing brew.
*Valoel puts on his silly apologist hat*
Oh no no no. Joseph Smith probably saw the land of Korea in a vision or something. They drink a cold beverage in the summer brewed from water and barley (infusion, not fermentation). It’s like iced tea (so it’s also not hot). THAT is what he wanted members to drink. It is very healthy and refreshing
I used to drink that all the time when I would go to the Korean soldier’s “Cantina” at the Army bases when I was stationed there.
Throwing this in the mix just for kicks: World’s oldest man (at the time) died this June at 113 years old. When asked about the secret of long life, he replied “cigarettes, whisky and wild, wild women!”
[img]http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/01426/cake_1426999c.jpg [/img] I apologize for being a little late to this discussion. Here are my thoughts: Some in this discussion have already pointed out that alcohol will cause problems for certain people (I know it has in my family), but they’re not sure about coffee or tea. I’ve known plenty of people that literally can’t function in the morning without at least one cup of coffee. To me, that sounds like an addiction. Caffeine may not cause all the problems alcohol may cause, but it can cause problems. When I was in college, I measured my caffeine intake in gallons. I had three 64 oz drink cups from the gas station and I filled up all three with Diet Mt. Dew every day. I was working, going to school, and had a family and I forced myself to get by on 3 hours of sleep a night. I’ll concede the lack of sleep was a much bigger problem than the caffeine was, but when I finally graduated from college and started working full time, I tried to quit drinking caffeinated beverages and got some monster headaches. About the only problem I’ve had not drinking coffee is some of the blank looks I get from co-workers and clients, but otherwise I don’t feel like I’m missing anything.
As for the WoW being a health code or not, I’ve always viewed the WoW as a baseline. D&C 89 states it was given for the weakest of the saints. It may not be a complete health code, but it’s a start. There is a clear line in the sand, but everyone can and should feel free to draw their own lines above and beyond what has been given based on their individual needs, as long as they don’t try to convince others that their view of the WoW is the right one. For instance, I’ve been avoiding popcorn for over 20 years due to a certain health condition I suffer from. I don’t tell anyone else not to eat popcorn, but I consider it part of my personal WoW. Same thing with junk food. Frankly, I’m appalled at all the junk available at ward and family functions, and I do my best to abstain. It’s hard, but it’s important for me to maintain my health and I hope I can be an example for others. The irony isn’t lost on me when people at ward parties give me grief for not eating chips, soda and desserts just like my co-workers give me grief for not drinking alcohol or coffee.
Quote:The problem with all minimum standards is that they tend to become the new norm
How true! I’ve heard the brethren later came to regret the “no R rated movie” rule, because everyone came to think everything PG-13 and below was fine. I abhor violence, and I was shocked at all the violence I saw in the Dark Knight, for example.
Quote:It’s about meat spoilage, not blocked colons. Back when WoW was received, the ability to preserve meat was very limited, but much more difficult in summer. In winter it could be frozen. There was no USDA inspection. It was also unthinkable that people would have such unrestricted access to meat that consuming mass quantities would be an issue as it is today, so personally I think the caution was to avoid food poisoning.
The funny thing about the “eat meat sparingly” rule is that it’s the one proscription in the WoW that’s not clearly well-defined. Sometimes I feel it’d be much easier if the prophet came out and said “no meat,” because then everyone would know where the line was. As it currently is, the line is different for everyone and most, if pressed, will admit they eat way too much meat. As for the practical nature, I totally agree. However, I read someone say once that if JS really wanted to protect the saints from disease, he’d have included a blurb about water purification. Cholera was a major problem for the early saints.
Quote:f we want the benefits of on-going revelation and an open canon, we need to accept those times when it goes in a different direction than we might prefer.
This begs a question, though. At what point does the WoW become so restrictive that we start losing a lot of members over it? For instance, if chocolate was ever added as a proscription, we’d lose a lot of men and just about all of the women!
Steve-hpias wrote:Some in this discussion have already pointed out that alcohol will cause problems for certain people (I know it has in my family), but they’re not sure about coffee or tea. I’ve known plenty of people that literally can’t function in the morning without at least one cup of coffee. To me, that sounds like an addiction. Caffeine may not cause all the problems alcohol may cause, but it can cause problems.
No doubt caffeine can be addicting…as can any other stimulant, narcotic, hypnotic, sedative, etc — all substances that “the saints” ingest regularly. I read that the country’s highest intake of diet colas per capita is Utah County. So it certainly seems that even “saints” have their vices — albeit possibly okay by WoW standards.
And yes, Mormons are known for their love of desserts. Guilty as charged. I grew up with a dessert-loving family, and it has been one of the hardest things to cut back on as an adult. Good thing I love to be active, or I’d be huge!
Anyway, one point I would make is that I someday hope to see the WoW return to it’s prior “suggestion” status, rather than the hard-core directive it is today — mainly because I think it is a fear-based, external commandment that encourages members to look outside themselves for direction on how to live. We all need that as children, but I think a natural part of spiritual maturity is to be self-empowered to behave according to our internal compass…and seek for a more intimate communion with God independently.
But that’s just where I am today.
Rix wrote:one point I would make is that I someday hope to see the WoW return to it’s prior “suggestion” status, rather than the hard-core directive it is today — mainly because I think it is a fear-based, external commandment that encourages members to look outside themselves for direction on how to live.
I agree with you, Rix. Especially since the standard was drawn in the sand decades ago, it has now simply become a matter of obedience than anything else. I like the way church leaders encourage saints to stay out of debt, but don’t judge personal worthiness to attend the temple based on it. But that’s just where I’m at right now too!Yeah, Heber13. Making stuff a requirement is a drag. I would rather they were much more frank about debt (as in “all debt feels lousy”), but never make it a requirement. And the same for the Word of Wisdom. Be scientific and frank about it, but lay off the requirement stuff. What about O’douls? If non-caffeinated Coke is now at BYU and the temple, if O’doul’s doesn’t have the heavy stuff, why not? Tigger wrote:What about O’douls?
I have always enjoyed the taste of “mild drinks made from barely.” LOL, and I even include barley water in addition to beer, a traditional chilled Korean beverage I enjoyed while stationed there in the Army. Even in my most “TBM” years (a span of almost 20 years as an adult), I often had O’douls or other non-alcoholic beer in my fridge.
I served a mission in Germany where beer is a dietary staple item. They make “kinderbiers” (kiddie beers) with extra vitamins and no alcohol. There was no rule against drinking those or others such as “Clausthauler” (another popular non-alc beer), and my Mission was pretty hardcore on rules. These drinks were considered health/sports drinks, and I don’t recall any members there having an issue with them.
to me d&c 89 has some interesting passages that either aren’t read literally or we have just decided to skip over some of them. for example, vs 16-17 are talking about grains and their many uses. at the end of vs. 17 it states “…and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.” correct me if i’m wrong, but isn’t beer and other alcoholic beverages made specifically from barley? what other “mild drink” made from barley could he possibly be referring to? and if you imply that the comma doesn’t apply here and should be applied to “all usefull animals” then you’re telling me that god wants us to give beer to our horses? i don’t think so. from what i’ve read joseph smith was known to have a beer or two on ocassion and even smoked tabacco once or twice. also did joseph smith ever define “hot drinks” as being coffee and tea? i know it was officially accepted later in church history, i think i’ve heard under joseph f. smith, but did he ever claim to receive revelation as to this definition? coffee and tea have both been thought of to provide health benefits. i’ve seen that coffee’s claim to health remidies has been disputed but tea, especially green tea, is, i believe, universally accepted as beneficial. again correct me if i’m wrong, i’m just shooting stuff out there that i’ve heard, i’m not a md.
the part of eating meat sparingly and only in times of famine or cold is definently not practiced. you can be 400 lbs and totally out of shape and not drink coffee, tea, or alcohol, and still get a tr. there is something wrong with that. shouldn’t we also avoid excessive use of pharmacetical drugs? don’t mormon women take more anti-depressants than anywhere else in the nation? i’m sure pharmaceuticals are needed at times but from what i’ve seen where i live (happy valley) it’s total overkill. personally, i don’t care if joseph smith tried to sneak in the barley vs. as meaning beer, i know that it’s unhealthy. i believe that god has given us a good body and a sound mind and anything that distorts that or attempts to alter it is not ordained of god. we should seek to keep our bodies and minds in the best shape possible by eating right and exercising. that’s my word of wisdom. although i heard once from a jewish scholar answer a question about why jews don’t eat pork and he responded by saying that he loves the fact that god cares about what he is eating. so that’s a valid point as well.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.