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jbelli21 wrote:
coffee and tea have both been thought of to provide health benefits. i’ve seen that coffee’s claim to health remidies has been disputed but tea, especially green tea, is, i believe, universally accepted as beneficial. again correct me if i’m wrong, i’m just shooting stuff out there that i’ve heard, i’m not a md.
the part of eating meat sparingly and only in times of famine or cold is definently not practiced. you can be 400 lbs and totally out of shape and not drink coffee, tea, or alcohol, and still get a tr. there is something wrong with that. shouldn’t we also avoid excessive use of pharmacetical drugs? don’t mormon women take more anti-depressants than anywhere else in the nation? i’m sure pharmaceuticals are needed at times but from what i’ve seen where i live (happy valley) it’s total overkill. personally, i don’t care if joseph smith tried to sneak in the barley vs. as meaning beer, i know that it’s unhealthy. i believe that god has given us a good body and a sound mind and anything that distorts that or attempts to alter it is not ordained of god. we should seek to keep our bodies and minds in the best shape possible by eating right and exercising. that’s my word of wisdom. although i heard once from a jewish scholar answer a question about why jews don’t eat pork and he responded by saying that he loves the fact that god cares about what he is eating. so that’s a valid point as well.
Jbelli, I know there is a lot of stuff to read, and I find it hard to go through everything in every thread. But just as a point you may find interesting, a lot of those same questions were discussed in this thread back on page 2,3 and again on 5 and 6 (including discussion on tea and anti-depressants). You may want to check those posts out and then add some of your thoughts after reading through those.Also, take a look at Brian’s post on Nov 17th on page 7…links to the Word of Wisdom in early days vs today…interesting stuff.
Regarding your post, I agree with you, it seems to get murky when you get into the details and then to consider that spiritual worthiness is judged based on some institutional interpretation of these things…it definitely becomes an interesting discussion when logically broken down and analyzed. I like your story of the jewish scholar and think we can learn from that answer…at some point, we can choose to accept the Word of Wisdom on some different level, and live it for how we think it will provide blessings to our lives by obeying it according to our conscience, and let go of certain co-dependencies or certain judgments of others.
WofW is always an interesting topic. I think if the church had settled in the south rather than the west, we would have ignored the part about tobacco and focused more on eating meat sparingly.
Ha.
I think the South actually has the highest obesity of any region in the US. They eat fried chicken there. Pork rinds aren’t exactly healthy either. mmmmmm southern-style barbecue; pulled pork, boiled peanuts, deep fried corn on the cob, fried turkeys, fried pies, biscuits and gravy, and biscuits with every meal! We just moved from Atlanta, GA. Which now means we are normal Yankees instead of @#%& Yankees (ones that visit the south and never go home, old-time local joke in that area)
Heber13 wrote:…Likewise, I see no reason the church would change it. Could it change? Sure, because I think energy drinks are worse than tea, in my irrelevant opinion.
Someone needs to think of a good argument why it should be changed, otherwise, it has become a cultural thing and is not a bad thing, so why fix something that ain’t broke.
…Word of Wisdom…I see no argument that alcohol, tea, coffee and tobacco can not be a token requirement to sacrafice for one’s faith in the Lord. Why must people
notbe told to abstain from these things? I see no argument to change it, despite having no testimony for requiring it. For me, it is way down on the totem pole of things that should be changed in the church. I don’t really expect the official Word of Wisdom policies to change any time soon simply because so many active members have gotten used to it to the point that we often think this is just the way it is supposed to be. I think the Church has typically liked and encouraged the idea of members being different and separate from “the world.” To change at this point would ruffle some feathers because some members would see this as lowering our standards.
That said, I think there are actually some good reasons to at least consider softening our emphasis on the Word of Wisdom somewhat. My guess is that this could actually turn out to be the single biggest issue that limits the sustained growth of the church, the long-term retention of members, and the activity levels of existing members.
For example, many youth who are raised in the Church or converts who are just getting started in the Church will quickly learn how much many active members frown on these habits. If members like this have already tried some of these things and then decide that they don’t really want to stop drinking or smoking or if they try to stop and fail some of them will just avoid the Church as much as possible because they feel uncomfortable around other members and want to avoid a guilt trip. If some members start to associate the Church mostly with strict rules, guilt, and shame then it becomes a negative experience for them and many will never come back because they think it’s just not worth it.
Even for the active members I worry that such a strong emphasis on the letter-of-the-law can easily lead to judgmental, self-righteous, and elitist attitudes that are polarizing and unchristian in nature (Matthew 9:10-12). I’m not so sure that it helps our credibility with the outside world to insist that drinking a cup of coffee is a sin that God is going to condemn people for. When some people hear about this it simply doesn’t make any sense to them and they might even start to think of us as fanatics because of a few things like this.
I have even heard members claim that positive references to wine in the Bible are actually talking about grape juice. Where did this idea come from? Seriously, there was no refrigeration back then so it’s not like they could just keep a fresh supply of grape juice on hand. Until recently beer and wine were actually safer to drink than the water in many cases and it might still be that way in some locations. Nutritional experts are constantly saying how drinking moderate amounts of wine is actually good for you in many ways.
Personally, I think we have gone way overboard with some of these attitudes. Whatever happened to common sense? Just because someone drinks a few beers it doesn’t mean he’s a bad guy in general or that he is going to die young. It seems like we could teach these principles as more of a suggestion similar to the RLDS (Community of Christ) Church rather than a set-in-stone commandment. We could still openly condemn alcohol abuse and other unhealthy addictions without alienating some Church members who struggle with these habits quite as much as we do now. Basically, I think it would be better to reach out to people and try to make them feel loved rather than treat them as if they are a lost cause and they’ve failed the test.
I agree with you DevilsAdvocate. I think we could really do a lot more good in the world, influence MORE people towards a life of divine transformation if the active, traditional core of the Church was more comfortable sitting on the pew next to someone who smells like smoke or drinks a beer now and then. The problem is we ask new converts to basically be temple worthy (which should be the pinnacle of our ideas of righteousness) when they take the first steps into the religion/culture — baptism. We also have a bad habit of indirectly chasing away people who are already members with those same inclinations.
Quote:The problem is we ask new converts to basically be temple worthy (which should be the pinnacle of our ideas of righteousness) when they take the first steps into the religion/culture — baptism.
Yup – that’s always been my only real issue with the way the Word of Wisdom is emphasized right now.
I am comfortable around people with WofW “problems.” So the best option is for MEto be that person I wish would befriend others and love them unconditionally. I suspect most of the people in our community here also have that capacity, and are not shocked by non-compliance. Let’s be those loving people and set the example!
Brian Johnston wrote:I agree with you DevilsAdvocate. I think we could really do a lot more good in the world, influence MORE people towards a life of divine transformation if the active, traditional core of the Church was more comfortable sitting on the pew next to someone who smells like smoke or drinks a beer now and then.
The problem is we ask new converts to basically be temple worthy (which should be the pinnacle of our ideas of righteousness) when they take the first steps into the religion/culture — baptism. We also have a bad habit of indirectly chasing away people who are already members with those same inclinations.
These kinds of temple worthiness requirements are emphasized so much in the Church that for many members this is what being a Mormon is all about basically things like not drinking coffee, paying tithing, etc. I think this is actually the real root of the problem many people have with the Church. The church makes so many demands of members in terms of time, money, and strict rules like this that some people will start to ask why exactly do I need to do all this? Is it really worth it?
The Church will insist that it is definitely worth it because this is the only way to have an eternal family in the Celestial Kingdom and we know all this because the prophets said so. The problem is that some people will then start to question just how much we can really trust these prophets. If it wasn’t for all the demands the Church currently makes many ex-Mormons probably wouldn’t have cared quite so much whether Joseph Smith’s claims are 100% true or not but as it is there is an obvious motive for some people to look for excuses to leave. At the same time the Church almost needs Joseph Smith to be everything they claim he was in order to really justify some of the demands they make. It’s become a bit of a catch-22.
Personally, I think we should try to move in the direction of being a kinder and gentler church and less of a burden even if that means fewer members going to the temple if they aren’t really comfortable with some of the entrance requirements. The Church leaders might be overestimating the strength of their position at this point. Telling people they need to do this or believe this because the prophets said so probably doesn’t carry quite the same weight that it used to. With all the anti-Mormon propaganda on the internet and more atheists actively trying to convert people nowadays some members’ faith will already be tested to the limit. Making too many demands just because that’s what we have always done will probably push more people over the edge now than in the past. Considering what exactly our goals are here and what they should be is something to think about.
This is an interesting thread. The WoW being a measure of one’s rightousness, while obesity/lack-of-exercise seem to be the actual major health threats, appears to have outlived it’s practicality. Throughout Mormonism, mainstream church and otherwise, this seems to be the gorilla in the corner of the room that doesns’t get properly addressed.
I’m a bit of a “Joseph Smith mormon” in that I turn to his teachings first on many subjects and, if it’s a revelation, I totally ignore any supposed revelation that contradicts a former one….as he instructed us to do….but, that’s just me.
This is the problem as I see it:
Hypothetical situation:
Brother Jones – Brother Jones is a good person. He supports his family, gives to charity, pays his tithing, and tries to raise his family with gospel principles. On Friday, after a hard week’s work, he enjoys a cold beer and (gasp) sometimes a nice cigar.
Brother Smith – Brother Smith is also a good person. He also supports his family, gives to charity, pays his tithing, and tries to raise his family with gospel principles as well. Brother Smith is also very overweight, he does not exercise because he let his body get in such poor shape that he can’t…he’s starting to have heart problems and the early signs of diabetes….but he is a tee-totaler…would never touch a beer or tobacco and feels himself a little more rightous than those that do.
Temple recommend interviews time…guess who gets a recommend….guess who doesn’t.
Yep, all is not well in Zion. Will it ever change? Yes, I think so..but it’s going to take members speaking up and not laying down for “follow the prophet” mentality.
This whole obedience to ecclesiastical authority thing has gotten a bit out of hand IMHO. In Mormonism’s history, it’s actually rather new…the last 40-50 years or so. It’s not just in the mainstream church either. I see it in the fundamentalist communities. Brother Joseph never advocated it. Obedience to God goes without question but when it comes to what we’ve evolved/degraded into…well…he advocated teaching us correct principles and letting us govern ourselves.
Having said all that, the Church is still a wonderful devine institution despite it’s flaws. If we concentrate on living the gospel of Jesus Christ, these small-potato issues will eventually take care of themselves.
DevilsAdvocate wrote:Personally, I think we should try to move in the direction of being a kinder and gentler church and less of a burden even if that means fewer members going to the temple if they aren’t really comfortable with some of the entrance requirements.
Well … other people (the current leaders) might lead that direction or they might not. You have very little control over that. The chance of accomplishing what you want from the top down to make it the way you want in your life is 0.00%
I can tell you what I did. I did exactly what you said in my church of 1 (me). I have control over my own life. I became a kinder and more gentle person. I let go of the burdens I didn’t want to carry, and I don’t bother getting a TR. Success rate in making that change? 100%
Here’s my version of what Brian just said. It shows that this really is an individual jorney and that we can’t blame anyone else for our own decisions – or claim we have no power to make our own decisions. Quote:I can tell you what I did. I did exactly what you said in my church of 1 (me). I have control over my own life. I became a kinder and more gentle person. I let go of the burdens I didn’t want to carry,
and I refuse to give up my temple recommend. Success rate in making that change? 100% Brian’s approach works for him right now; my approach works for me. Your approach is up to you – each and every one of you.
I’ll still sit next to you in church Ray, even if you are weird 
Bruce in Montana wrote:This is an interesting thread. The WoW being a measure of one’s rightousness, while obesity/lack-of-exercise seem to be the actual major health threats, appears to have outlived it’s practicality.
I agree very much with this but my belief is that the WoW has little to do with health anymore. That is why we claim to obey it but being the pessimist that I am on this issue I think it is more about control and setting us apart from the rest of the world. We might as well say dairy products are bad and we need to abstain from them. Its not about what is good or bad, but what we can demonize. The science is becoming more clear that items such as red wine and coffee are actually beneficial. Especially when used in moderation. Sure tobacco is still considered bad so why do we not keep that and adjust the rest. Because we are afraid we will become to much like the world, and it is part of our culture now. The church is so much like the government. It just has a hard time adapting to changing condition and people want to hang on to what they perceived worked in the past.
Quote:It just has a hard time adapting to changing condition and people want to hang on to what they perceived worked in the past.
Fwiw, that’s not “the church”; it’s people in general – which is why it is the church.
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