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I watched the video: Top 5 Myths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church. The top four reasons for leaving the church can be addressed by the following bible verse:
A Tree and Its Fruit
Matthew 7:15-19 NRSV
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 In the same way, every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.
The above verse forms my entire basis for accepting the LDS church as the most righteous church on Earth.
you will know them by their fruits: (good or bad).
The Fruit of the Spirit
Galatians 5:22-23 NRSV
22 By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control.
I see the fruit of the spirit much more consistently in every member of my local ward than in any other church that I ever attended. I am convinced that this degree of consistency can only come through the direct authority of God.
I have never detected the slightest trace of animosity from any of the members of my local Papillion, Nebraska ward.
Key elements of the unique doctrine (that directly pertains to righteousness) of the LDS church have been confirmed within my heart by the Holy Spirit. I pay little heed to any doctrine that does not directly pertain to righteousness.
I am not judging the church on the basis of true or false, (OT criteria).
I am judging it on whether or not its fruits are good or bad. (Christ’s own criteria).
When one judges the church by its fruits (good or bad) the top four reasons (referenced above) for quitting the church cease to exist. I judge the church on the basis of the consistency of the Love expressed by its members.
peteolcott wrote:I am not judging the church on the basis of true or false, (OT criteria).
I am judging it on whether or not its fruits are good or bad. (Christ’s own criteria).
When one judges the church by its fruits (good or bad) most of the reasons for quitting the church cease to exist.
Hi Pete! Welcome,
I like your point that maybe there is a better question to ask than purely “is it true or false?” Those topics can become so tangled.
I too relied heavily on the fruits as a reason to stay with the church when I was in the worst of my crisis, I have always enjoyed many parts of my church membership. To be fair I think we should also recognize that not everyone has the same experience, and if they find for their own life that the fruits outside of church membership taste sweeter for them than life inside, I think we should lean on the 11th article of faith and wish them the best.
peteolcott wrote:I see the fruit of the spirit much more consistently in
every member of my local wardthan in any other church that I ever attended. I am convinced that this degree of consistency can only come through the direct authority of God. … When one judges the church by its fruits (good or bad) most of the reasons for quitting the church cease to exist.
Are you joking?
I noticed this is your first post. Perhaps an introduction would be nice. I would be interested to know what part of the world you live, and have lived, to come up with this kind of perspective.
I agree with cwald. I’m also surprised by your assertion that all the church’s fruits are good. Have you not read any of the personal stories here? Or do you suffer from selection bias when it comes to other people’s lived experience? I actually posted on this question earlier: http://www.wheatandtares.org/12345/is-it-more-important-that-the-church-be-good-or-true/ hawkgrrrl wrote:I agree with cwald. I’m also surprised by your assertion that all the church’s fruits are good. Have you not read any of the personal stories here? Or do you suffer from selection bias when it comes to other people’s lived experience? I actually posted on this question earlier:
http://www.wheatandtares.org/12345/is-it-more-important-that-the-church-be-good-or-true/ I edited my response a bit Hawk. I’m in a good mood this morning.
Wearing the moderator hat here I don’t see that Pete is saying everyone should have the same experience he has had. I can see how that may be assumed with his statement that most problems can fade if everyone will focus on fruit, but I did read it as a personal reflection based on individual experience. Could he be open to acknowledging different experience? We do allow people to share their honest experience and insights here, yes? …as long as mutual respect can be maintained. I will stop speaking for Pete now – and hope we can all maintain respect.
Orson wrote:Wearing the moderator hat here I don’t see that Pete is saying everyone should have the same experience he has had. I can see how that may be assumed with his statement that most problems can fade if everyone will focus on fruit, but I did read it as a personal reflection based on individual experience. Could he be open to acknowledging different experience? We do allow people to share their honest experience and insights here, yes? …as long as mutual respect can be maintained.
I will stop speaking for Pete now – and hope we can all maintain respect.
I see it as the standard arrogant religious statement that “we (our religion), and our people are better than everyone else.” This needs to stop. Its why people are leaving the church.
I agree with the “by their fruits” measure as a whole, and it’s one of the reasons I joined the church to begin with (after reading”A Marvelous Work and a Wonder”). However, I can’t say that other churches don’t have good fruit or even that there is not good fruit to be found outside religion. My reaction to the OP is quite quite simple and I often repeat it: “It’s not that simple” (Pres. Uchtdorf). I think Pres. Uchtdorf was trying to make a point when he made that statement, and that point is that active members like to pigeon hole inactives into a categories as to why they’re inactive. This is an attempt to do the same, IMO. It’s not that simple.
peteolcott wrote:I watched the video: Top 5 Myths about Why Committed Mormons Leave the Church.
The top four reasons for leaving the church can be addressed by the following bible verse:
peteolcott wrote:When one judges the church by its fruits (good or bad) most of the reasons for quitting the church cease to exist.
Unfortunately, I’m not familiar with the 5 myths that are referenced. I fully agree that some people in some areas are exposed to a significant amount of “good fruit” in the church. If that is your experience then “keep on keepin’ on!” This site is focused on showing compassion and understanding for people that have found themselves coping with an extra large helping of bad fruit.
As for the title of the post on winning back those that have left the church, I’m not sure that telling these individuals that Mormons have more “good fruit” than anyone else will be very effective.
If your goal is to understand and help people that have left the church, I hope you might consider modifying your approach.
I am firmly in the camp of …the fruits in no way are better than most other orgs….in fact the church does a much poorer job of compassionate service than many other orgs. Kindness to each other? Not so much….watch conference from just a month back..not lots of compassion…did hear a lot of judgement and self righteousness….not many words I can imagine coming from the saviors mouth though. Sheldon – When you post one liners like that one and your icon picture is next to it, I just bust up. Love it. 😆 Can you say polygyny, curing homosexuality, guilt and depression because you aren’t perfect, Mountain Meadows? The list goes on. There is a lot of rotten fruit. I would neversay, even just in my opinion, that the LDS church is the “most righteous church on earth.” But I canimagine saying what (I think?) Pete is concluding after actually searching for another congregation. If having a flesh and blood congregation is important to you, and you try a bunch and come back to the LDS church, that makes it the “most” something. . . for him. Turinturambar just posted a second introduction and I thought this line applies here: “Regardless of the generally negative fruits of the institutional church in my life, my local reality is pretty good.” Maybe “all politics is local,” and all religion is, too.
I’ve tried to ignore. It’s an obsession and I can’t help it… It’s “those who…” not “those whom…”
Sorry.
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